Lever action for gallery rifle and bush gun

[jungle_re]

My target club has got access to a nice little range that allows up to .44 mag pistol rifle to be shot.

I'm considering buying a Marlin SBL to shoot gallery rifle there and possibly for driven game at short range.

Does anyone shoot pistol cal lever actions have any advice to offer?

 

Cheers Will

[Gunsgobang88]

Hi,

 

Speak to Baldie, he is the guru on Gallery Rifle!

 

Alan

[gbal]

My target club has got access to a nice little range that allows up to .44 mag pistol rifle to be shot.

I'm considering buying a Marlin SBL to shoot gallery rifle there and possibly for driven game at short range.

Does anyone shoot pistol cal lever actions have any advice to offer?

 

Cheers Will

Hi Will

What species of driven game-anything like boar etc will need more knock down energy than 44 mag,and cf legal minima for deer etc.357/44 is fine for gallery,and you can load down a bit.

george

[jungle_re]

Hi Will

What species of driven game-anything like boar etc will need more knock down energy than 44 mag,and cf legal minima for deer etc.357/44 is fine for gallery,and you can load down a bit.

george

 

George there is very little the right bullet from a .44 under at sensible ranges (75m or less) won't drop including boar and would be deer legal also though shooting driven deer doesn't really appeal. Seems quite popular state side and in OZ with the caveat of the short ranges (under a 100). This would be primarily to shoot gallery though as when home I try to get to club at least a couple of times a week - driven boar and specifically woodland driven boar would be a rare occasion at best. Rapid follow up shots and something that handles more like a shotgun is appeal to me in that instance.

 

Hornaday FTX Leverevolution at 225gr achieves 1870 fps and 1747 ft lbs at the muzzle

[gbal]

George there is very little the right bullet from a .44 under at sensible ranges (75m or less) won't drop including boar and would be deer legal also though shooting driven deer doesn't really appeal. Seems quite popular state side and in OZ with the caveat of the short ranges (under a 100). This would be primarily to shoot gallery though as when home I try to get to club at least a couple of times a week - driven boar and specifically woodland driven boar would be a rare occasion at best. Rapid follow up shots and something that handles more like a shotgun is appeal to me in that instance.

 

Hornaday FTX Leverevolution at 225gr achieves 1870 fps and 1747 ft lbs at the muzzle

Seems underpowered for driven boar to me-but if you fancy the shotgun feel,get an 12g auto shotgun with Brenneke slugs/similar-continental Europe is a better guide to what works,than USA, for driven boar. 'Popular' in USA don't mean 'sensible' or best choice- unless you think Alaskan bear with a handgun is sensible-it is 'possible',of course esp if your guide packs something sensible,and it might well be a lever action (450 alaskan eg,but will NOT be 44mag!)

44 mag is just fine for UK gallery,where you won't need or want full loads,I wouldn't think .I got a 357 as I wanted to shoot a little further,200+,but there really isn't much between 44/357-for that purpose,which is really stretching them,trajectory wise. A 223/243 browning would have been better,(next time) but I just liked the lightness/compactnesss of the pistol carbines,and had 357 dies etc.

george

[baldie]

Right, you have two different beasties here.

The SBL is a fine rifle, but its built on the larger 336 frame and has a round bolt, which is long, thus neccesitating a long throw on the lever. The sbl is fitted with the large "John Wayne " lever, which is designed for use with gloves and as much use as tits on a Boar. It slows the reload down somewhat rotten, and rattles the fronts of your fingers.

This action is far better suited to the larger calibres like 45-70 or .444 etc. The big lever is then a boon to ramming those huge cases home.

The gun is tuneable, but not much.

 

Then you have the 1894 which is the original Marlin, and the gun that won the west [forget the winchester ] This is a smaller action and eminently more suitable for extremely fast shooting with the smaller cartridges like .38/357 and 44magnum.

They can be tuned very well indeed. My conversions can be cocked, from fired with your little finger. Triggers can be tuned, etc etc.

The "Remlins" that have plagued us for the last couple of years have thankfully been sorted and marlin are now producing decent firearms again.

Unfortunatly the .44 production has still stopped i believe, due to recalibration etc, to sort out the same problems the 357 had.

None at the importers and none due.

Ring round the dealers and you may find one however.

If you buy s/h , cock the hammer and look inside the action. If it has a series of dots, thats a computer generated ID that remington [the marlin owners ] use. You need to see the gun shot, or cycled with dummies before you buy. If it doesn,t have these marks, then its an older marlin, and you can buy with confidence.

[TC]

I presume "Male chickened" is a function of the new software

[jungle_re]

but I just liked the lightness/compactnesss of the pistol carbines

just as valid reason as any George

 

 

Thank you - again some really usefully advice.

This forum really ought to have come with a cost warning

[Laurie]

I presume "Male chickened" is a function of the new software

 

Yes - I had it happen to me a few days ago. Just don't tell anyone your bolt-action rifles come supplied with cocking pieces. (That is c**k*ng -we'll see how that tunrs out!)

[Laurie]

I presume "Male chickened" is a function of the new software

 

Yes - I had it happen to me a few days ago. Just don't tell anyone your bolt-action rifles come supplied with cocking pieces. (That is c**k*ng - we'll see how that turns out!)

[Laurie]

Will,

 

ask the club if they'll let you use a 444 Marlin levergun on the range with 44 Mag or lighter loads. It definitely will take deer (and I presume boar) with full-house jacketed loads, but can be treated as a pistol cartridge for range use. I sometimes load mine with 240 (?) gn electroplated bullets over a case-load of IMR-Trail Boss. It's barely supersonic and lovely to shoot at 100 yards.

 

The 44 Mag is a great light load lead bullet number for 25/50/100 yard shooting - can be very accurate. Powders like Bullseye and Unique work well with light loads with 200-240gn RNFP bullets in a good Marlin 94. MVs I used to load too were just subsonic for 50M, running 1,000-1,100 fps. The 444 shoots the same with the same bullets and powders, only needs a bit more powder because of its larger case capacity.

[gbal]

Right, you have two different beasties here.

The SBL is a fine rifle, but its built on the larger 336 frame and has a round bolt, which is long, thus neccesitating a long throw on the lever. The sbl is fitted with the large "John Wayne " lever, which is designed for use with gloves and as much use as tits on a Boar. It slows the reload down somewhat rotten, and rattles the fronts of your fingers.

This action is far better suited to the larger calibres like 45-70 or .444 etc. The big lever is then a boon to ramming those huge cases home.

The gun is tuneable, but not much.

 

Then you have the 1894 which is the original Marlin, and the gun that won the west [forget the winchester ] This is a smaller action and eminently more suitable for extremely fast shooting with the smaller cartridges like .38/357 and 44magnum.

They can be tuned very well indeed. My conversions can be cocked, from fired with your little finger. Triggers can be tuned, etc etc.

The "Remlins" that have plagued us for the last couple of years have thankfully been sorted and marlin are now producing decent firearms again.

Unfortunatly the .44 production has still stopped i believe, due to recalibration etc, to sort out the same problems the 357 had.

None at the importers and none due.

Ring round the dealers and you may find one however.

If you buy s/h , cock the hammer and look inside the action. If it has a series of dots, thats a computer generated ID that remington [the marlin owners ] use. You need to see the gun shot, or cycled with dummies before you buy. If it doesn,t have these marks, then its an older marlin, and you can buy with confidence.

"The gun that won the west" ?

 

Most experts say the west (ie in what became USA) was 'won' by ,say 1900,probably earlier.

The civil war saw some use of lever actions-Volition/Volcanic,then the Henry and the Spencer.Winchester bet his shirt factory on his Henry improved design,the 1866 yellow boy,of which there are records of at leaast 170,101 being produced. Then the Winchester 1873,and 1876 much in demand in the west. In 1894, the Winchester 1894 appeared,and within a couple of years was chambered in the new era 30 WCF aka 30/30,and by 1919 had sold 7 million,more than any other sporting rifle.Fortuitously for comparisons,,the first Marlin rifles appeared in 1891 and 1893 and the latter became the 36/336 in time.Both have sold well,but it is hard to find data that support the Marlin over the Winchester(1984 ish models) as far as the 'winning the west' time span is concerned-indeed both have only a few years left of the old west,on the most generous of time scales.And the early Winchester models already had a considerable lead(no Marlins at all!)

West won?-well, by the 1880s the cattle trails were largely gone,and the railroads were opening up the 'west'. In 1880 there were only 100 buffalo left,and legislation had ended the 'open range' era,and with it went the lawless cowboys,gunslingers and iffy lawmen,and Wounded Knee in 1890 is accepted as the end of armed conflict between the Army and Native Americans.

Now,it is almost impossible to say how many rifles produced actually saw use in the west,but thee is precious little reason to see that in the last 5/6 years of the century,Marlin much outsold Winchester on this criterion.The NW Mounties adopted a Winchester too.The 30/30 does mark a new era,and the 1895/1899 Savage just underlines the progress,as do Theodore Roosevelt's choices in .405-and his emphasis on game conservation-hardly a priority hitherto!

While Hollywood etc may not always be 100% accurate in depicting which Winchester is most likely,it is correct in not showing any Marlins in films set prior to 1893,as there were none at all.And Butch Cassidy/Wild Bunch etc etc at least are not too far off the mark in the general political /social etc changes that were under way,as the west was 'tamed'.

 

Now that's sorted,both the Winchester and Marlin compete(d) as sporting rifles,and still do-mainly 30/30,and 'cowboy cartridges',have made a comeback,and in replicas..Each have their merits-and weaknesses,and no doubt fans.But that is not our concern here. But if anyone has either model in 6.5x47 Lakota,it's worth a fortune!

 

george

[ejg223]

and they can take deer... one of two I got yesterday with my 30-30 Winchester.

 

[Chris-NZ]

probably with the historic Lever-evolution ammo I'd guess Edi?

[baldie]

"The gun that won the west" ?

 

Most experts say the west (ie in what became USA) was 'won' by ,say 1900,probably earlier.

The civil war saw some use of lever actions-Volition/Volcanic,then the Henry and the Spencer.Winchester bet his shirt factory on his Henry improved design,the 1866 yellow boy,of which there are records of at leaast 170,101 being produced. Then the Winchester 1873,and 1876 much in demand in the west. In 1894, the Winchester 1894 appeared,and within a couple of years was chambered in the new era 30 WCF aka 30/30,and by 1919 had sold 7 million,more than any other sporting rifle.Fortuitously for comparisons,,the first Marlin rifles appeared in 1891 and 1893 and the latter became the 36/336 in time.Both have sold well,but it is hard to find data that support the Marlin over the Winchester(1984 ish models) as far as the 'winning the west' time span is concerned-indeed both have only a few years left of the old west,on the most generous of time scales.And the early Winchester models already had a considerable lead(no Marlins at all!)

West won?-well, by the 1880s the cattle trails were largely gone,and the railroads were opening up the 'west'. In 1880 there were only 100 buffalo left,and legislation had ended the 'open range' era,and with it went the lawless cowboys,gunslingers and iffy lawmen,and Wounded Knee in 1890 is accepted as the end of armed conflict between the Army and Native Americans.

Now,it is almost impossible to say how many rifles produced actually saw use in the west,but thee is precious little reason to see that in the last 5/6 years of the century,Marlin much outsold Winchester on this criterion.The NW Mounties adopted a Winchester too.The 30/30 does mark a new era,and the 1895/1899 Savage just underlines the progress,as do Theodore Roosevelt's choices in .405-and his emphasis on game conservation-hardly a priority hitherto!

While Hollywood etc may not always be 100% accurate in depicting which Winchester is most likely,it is correct in not showing any Marlins in films set prior to 1893,as there were none at all.And Butch Cassidy/Wild Bunch etc etc at least are not too far off the mark in the general political /social etc changes that were under way,as the west was 'tamed'.

 

Now that's sorted,both the Winchester and Marlin compete(d) as sporting rifles,and still do-mainly 30/30,and 'cowboy cartridges',have made a comeback,and in replicas..Each have their merits-and weaknesses,and no doubt fans.But that is not our concern here. But if anyone has either model in 6.5x47 Lakota,it's worth a fortune!

 

george

The first lever action marlin was produced and sold in 1881. The gun took the year as its model number and was produced in 32-40 , 38-55, 40-60 , 45-70 and 45-85.

Roger has one in his own personal collection.

[tackb]

surely a lever action is high capacity fast firing so will be subject to the assult rifle ban soon in america? (i'll get my coat!)

[ejg223]

probably with the historic Lever-evolution ammo I'd guess Edi?

Not a chance around here, glad to get a box of something that will fit. About to run out on the 150gr Remington soft points.

At 7m it didn't make much difference anyway... I think.

edi

[gbal]

Oops,sorry Dave-you are correct of course-teach me to only check 3 sources. eg

JG Rosa-Guns of the American West gives Winchester a chapter,and J Marlin 2 lines.(no 1881)

"Marlin Firearms laboured for a century as underdog levergun maker to Winchester"-wikipedia.

The NRA account is similarly much skewed to Winchester,as is Sam Fadala.,as I recall.

But the 1881 model does not change the general overall picture-Marlin were way behind Winchester in 1881,and there is no real evidence that their respective subsequent models outsold each others-"on the frontier",or what was left of it. There also seems more photographic evidence of Winchesters than Marlins,but that is only suggestive.I suppose production figures might help,but it would be almost impossible to track down where the majority ended up. The Marlin may well,and possible rightly,have won the much more recent 'Cowboy Shooting' interest,but that is quite a different matter.

 

But it matters little,I doubt that much would topple the Winchester ('73 esp) from it's popularly perceived place as the 'gun that won the west',even if that were seriously disputable.There is no doubt that the Marlins were equally capable,they were just late on the scene.

 

george

[Laurie]

If you're interested in this sort of thing, Mike Venturino ('Handloader' and 'Rifle' magazine writer) produced a very good large format paper back called Shooting Lever guns of the Old West with a potted history of the rifles, looking at originals, modedrn repros and handloading for them all including one or two modern introductions such as the 44 Magnum.

 

Apparently the term 'Old West' has largely replaced what we used to call 'The Wild West' and Venturino says the Winchester 1892 barely made the period, the 'Old West' era having come to an end in most western states and regions by then. So, winning the West took place c 1850-1890, 1900 at the outside. Although the westward movement of European settlers started much earlier than the 40 or 50 years in question, it gets its own mythology because it was the main colonisation period and saw the Indian wars, near extiction of the bison and so on.

 

Venturino describes the Marlin 1881 as a significant step forward in lever gun evolution and one that must have worried Winchester greatly on its introduction because the '81 was available chambered for the .45-70 Government which Winchester had so far failed to achieve, and had to wait until Browning helped out by designing the rifle that became the M1886.

 

His other significant comment on guns that won the West or otherwise is his purely personal opinion as follows:

 

"Quite often the Winchester Model 1873 .44-40 is called 'the gun that won the West. I doubt that. My frame of mind is that Sharps made the West safe for Winchesters. But that's another story."

[gbal]

The 30/30 and generic(M or W) lever action combination has,properly used, probably accounted for more deer than any other,and, perhaps,improperly used wounded more deer than any other!

But it's forte is a very easy/fast handling combination of sufficient power/performance at relatively short range,and especially close cover/woodland.The 18 lb behemoth in 6.55 Magbang,with 14x S&B,bipod,etc comes into its own at longer ranges,with more time.

A heavy bolt action in 30/30 is just a failure to undesrstand basics,but a lever action in 307/308 is not (especially since levermatic ammo).Discuss!

[gbal]

Laurie,terms like 'won' and 'safe' are weasel words in that they beg many questions of just what is involved.The issues are complex,and cause and effect by no mens straightforward.One could argue that it was the Native Anericans that made the West unsafe for settlers,and that the complete removal of the bison herds by the Sharps (and a few others) effectively reduced that threat-and it was a very big factor,but the US Army might add that their 45/70 Springfield (i873?)contributed more directly.

 

If 'safe for the winchester' is meant to imply that the 40/44 was rather anemic,fair enough-though the NA's didn't have much better. Custer might have held out a little longer with W73's,until ammo run out, but the issue was 'outnumbered'.

 

Essentially the west was not 'won' exclusively by any one rifle/cartridge but by political/economic forces of a rather ruthless nature.It's tempting to add 'psychological'-meaning ignorance,greed , prejudice,and perhaps misplaced paternalism. So what's new?

 

george

[jungle_re]

I hoping mine will knock holes though pl15's or what ever helping to protect a middle aged increasing in statue man from cardboard burns!

 

Tactical lever actions whats not to like

[Bob Valdez]

Here is my buddy putting a lever action to good use.

 

[Andrew]

The 30/30 and generic(M or W) lever action combination has,properly used, probably accounted for more deer than any other,and, perhaps,improperly used wounded more deer than any other!

But it's forte is a very easy/fast handling combination of sufficient power/performance at relatively short range,and especially close cover/woodland.The 18 lb behemoth in 6.55 Magbang,with 14x S&B,bipod,etc comes into its own at longer ranges,with more time.

A heavy bolt action in 30/30 is just a failure to undesrstand basics,but a lever action in 307/308 is not (especially since levermatic ammo).Discuss!

Not getting the point of the last sentence. I owned a Winchester Model 54 bolt fun in 30-30, a Remington 788 in 30-30, and a heavy Cast Bullet Benchrest gun in 30-30. I also owned a Ruger 1 Schutezen rifle in 30-30. When you take it out of the lever gun the 30-30 is a fine performer.

 

As to the guns that won the west? Probably the Trapdoor Springfield and light Howitzers. Winchester Model 73's were issued to the Indians through the Indian Agencies on the Reservations for the purpose of hunting. Lt Col. Custer's men were shot up with them.~Andrew

[gbal]

Not getting the point of the last sentence. I owned a Winchester Model 54 bolt fun in 30-30, a Remington 788 in 30-30, and a heavy Cast Bullet Benchrest gun in 30-30. I also owned a Ruger 1 Schutezen rifle in 30-30. When you take it out of the lever gun the 30-30 is a fine performer.

 

As to the guns that won the west? Probably the Trapdoor Springfield and light Howitzers. Winchester Model 73's were issued to the Indians through the Indian Agencies on the Reservations for the purpose of hunting. Lt Col. Custer's men were shot up with them.~Andrew

Hi Andrew-I know that some 30/30s have been used in bolt actions-but not many,compared to the very popular levewr actions..Note too I said 'heavy'. I meant that the 30/30 s forte/forte is as a fast handling,light,short range (deer) rifle-for which it has been extensively used,as you know. The rifle/combination what makes it popular.

As I said,there is a case for the Army weapons,if your view of 'winning the west' was the removal of the indigenous population,which was one top priority at the time.Custer's defeat simply delayed that a short time-and there is evidence that some-perhaps not many-Winchester 73s were used against him.But their role was marginal in the overall result-it might have been different if Custer's troop all had those rifles;but again,this would just alter the time span a couple of years or so. For the homesteader/'cowboy' the generic lever action was the rifle of choice,though there is no real way of establishing it's exact effectiveness as 'west winner'. As I've suggested too,essentially that was a political decision,operationalised by a growing majority with more and better rifles etc.,as is not uncommon in the imperial way of doing things.

george