Centerfire moderator prices?????

[darkstar66]

As a new fullbore conscript im finding a few things rather interesting.....mainly the price of certain components!

 

The first which springs to mind is the price of moderators! Im not trying to rile up anyone but as an engineer im finding it hard to justify charging astronomical prices for what is essentially a steel or ally tube with baffles.

 

Im not convinced that there is a major amount of design to warrant the price as there seems to be a lot of people with lathes out there making extremely effective tools themselves. Now before i get a torrent of messages stating the dangers of home made moderators i must state i would never make or suggest making a home made moddy but the fact remains its not that hard and can be carried out in a shed.

 

So my question is......why charge £250 for something that is easily mass produced, easy to design and, if you take the health of your ears in to account, essential when hunting? Is it just a case of suppliers cashing in on supply and demand? Or are they actually made out of unicorn horns?

 

All opinions welcome and please make them constructive!

[gbal]

As a new fullbore conscript im finding a few things rather interesting.....mainly the price of certain components!

 

The first which springs to mind is the price of moderators! Im not trying to rile up anyone but as an engineer im finding it hard to justify charging astronomical prices for what is essentially a steel or ally tube with baffles.

 

Im not convinced that there is a major amount of design to warrant the price as there seems to be a lot of people with lathes out there making extremely effective tools themselves. Now before i get a torrent of messages stating the dangers of home made moderators i must state i would never make or suggest making a home made moddy but the fact remains its not that hard and can be carried out in a shed.

 

So my question is......why charge £250 for something that is easily mass produced, easy to design and, if you take the health of your ears in to account, essential when hunting? Is it just a case of suppliers cashing in on supply and demand? Or are they actually made out of unicorn horns?

 

All opinions welcome and please make them constructive!

 

An interesting point-rimfire of course are less heavy duty,but then are an awful lot less in cost,perhaps only 20%-with not that much in it perhaps for 'design'-established designs work ok, or materials,or time,and 'standards etc-insurance etc etc apply to rf manufactures.And yes,shed made ones can work quite well,I've heard (or not!).But why x5 cost for CF,done to same standards-non material overheads etc can't apply differentially.

george

george

[Gunsgobang88]

As a new fullbore conscript im finding a few things rather interesting.....mainly the price of certain components!

 

The first which springs to mind is the price of moderators! Im not trying to rile up anyone but as an engineer im finding it hard to justify charging astronomical prices for what is essentially a steel or ally tube with baffles.

 

Im not convinced that there is a major amount of design to warrant the price as there seems to be a lot of people with lathes out there making extremely effective tools themselves. Now before i get a torrent of messages stating the dangers of home made moderators i must state i would never make or suggest making a home made moddy but the fact remains its not that hard and can be carried out in a shed.

 

So my question is......why charge £250 for something that is easily mass produced, easy to design and, if you take the health of your ears in to account, essential when hunting? Is it just a case of suppliers cashing in on supply and demand? Or are they actually made out of unicorn horns?

 

All opinions welcome and please make them constructive!

 

Hi,

 

I don't have an axe to grind as I am not involved (at present) in the design and manufacture of moderators. However, moderators are one of the few mainstream components supplied by individuals or small companies that have an adequate profit margin. Most shooters would be very surprised by the very slim margins that most people manufacturing components survive on. This subject has been covered before by several of the gun and rifle makers, gunsmiths etc. on UKV.

 

In one respect we are lucky, in the US there are several moderators in the $1300-1400 bracket, Surefire for example,

 

Alan

[baldie]

The average mark up on shooting gear, guns etc [not clothing ] is 18%.

 

Not many industries would open their doors for that mark up....cos its crap.

[Danpd]

As a new fullbore conscript im finding a few things rather interesting.....mainly the price of certain components!

 

The first which springs to mind is the price of moderators! Im not trying to rile up anyone but as an engineer im finding it hard to justify charging astronomical prices for what is essentially a steel or ally tube with baffles.

 

Im not convinced that there is a major amount of design to warrant the price as there seems to be a lot of people with lathes out there making extremely effective tools themselves. Now before i get a torrent of messages stating the dangers of home made moderators i must state i would never make or suggest making a home made moddy but the fact remains its not that hard and can be carried out in a shed.

 

So my question is......why charge £250 for something that is easily mass produced, easy to design and, if you take the health of your ears in to account, essential when hunting? Is it just a case of suppliers cashing in on supply and demand? Or are they actually made out of unicorn horns?

 

All opinions welcome and please make them constructive!

 

Most people think that a moderator is just a simple tube with a few baffles and a couple of welds. Unfortunately this means that most available in the market are designed on this principle, and are total Sh1te. The ones that actually work have had a lot of thought go into their design and manufacture and do deserve a premium price above the other dross out there.

[Gunsgobang88]

The average mark up on shooting gear, guns etc [not clothing ] is 18%.

 

Not many industries would open their doors for that mark up....cos its crap.

Eloquently and succinctly put as usual Dave!

 

Alan

[baldie]

I,ve been to college you know.....

[darkstar66]

I,ve been to college you know.....

 

Hello guys, Baldie and Gunsgobang,

 

That markup of 18% this includes mods i presume? I would like to see figures on cost v produce dev, material overheads etc?

 

Gunsgobang i can appreciate that there are some shocking 'mods' out there but lets not forget that humble sak....which is in essence an ally tube with some baffles..... not for c/f but £35 and if looked after last and are extremely effective! I have two that are years old and have years left even after target bashing! I have had the luck of having a very patient gun shop who have let me strip several top name moderators down and surprise surprise they all follow a similar theme.....tube with baffles. Very simple to produce. You mentioned the premium makes, what design type do they follow?

 

I know there is always two sides of the argument but i am yet to hear a precise argument with figures that justify the price of moderators.

 

To expand on a point i made earlier on, there is also a health issue here, noise levels and ear safety, are manufacturers taking advantage of hunters who want to protect their hearing? How much does one put price of hearing?

[achosenman]

The UK is not called “the golden Isle” for nothing.

 

The short answer is yes we are being ripped off...but not so much on the cost of shooting kit. Everything we buy in life can have some obscene mark-ups. I knew a jewellery wholesaler rep once; he told me the mark-up was often 400% in that industry.

 

It starts at the top in Westminster and flows downhill from there. If you need a diagram on where we humble plebs sit in the grand scheme of things, I’m sure I can find a diagram.

 

ATB

[darkstar66]

The UK is not called “the golden Isle” for nothing.

 

The short answer is yes we are being ripped off...but not so much on the cost of shooting kit. Everything we buy in life can have some obscene mark-ups. I knew a jewellery wholesaler rep once; he told me the mark-up was often 400% in that industry.

 

It starts at the top in Westminster and flows downhill from there. If you need a diagram on where we humble plebs sit in the grand scheme of things, I’m sure I can find a diagram.

 

ATB

 

Achosenman hello!

 

An interesting point on markups.....does anyone know the markup on a mod?

[Hatzi]

Looks like a whole new flock of moderators are about to appear on the market that will be a quarter of the current prices. There is without question a market for a product made by someone with a machine shop, no r&d, no RFD, no liability insurance who are unwilling to submit test models for proof that for 50 quid will weigh 400g, resist gas cutting and corrosion for a minimum of 5000 rounds over 10 years use and cut at least 40dB from all calibres.

 

You two crack on with that and i promise a fortune at your fingertips, there is plenty of cheap steel knocking around too if you go after midnight to the local encampment.

 

P.s. baldie, do you need a teaboy or floor sweeper, my day rate is 50p and no paye tax or NI worries, im happy to work for nowt although i hear some people are really greedy and wotk to pay bills to live

[Offroad Gary]

Jacksons will replace one for 60% of new cost. My degree is in rocket science by the way!

[brown dog]

Very simple to produce. You mentioned the premium makes, what design type do they follow?

 

The expensive ones that are expensive for a reason are the ones that manage gas flow differently. The best example I can think of are the jetz cqb etc have a look at the internals of one of those.

I agree though that UK seems to be swamped by mods - and we've talked about some shockers on here recently.

Rule of thumb with no fancy test equipment: if standing 20ft from it in use makes you want to put ear defenders on; it's shite

[baldie]

Looks like a whole new flock of moderators are about to appear on the market that will be a quarter of the current prices. There is without question a market for a product made by someone with a machine shop, no r&d, no RFD, no liability insurance who are unwilling to submit test models for proof that for 50 quid will weigh 400g, resist gas cutting and corrosion for a minimum of 5000 rounds over 10 years use and cut at least 40dB from all calibres.

 

You two crack on with that and i promise a fortune at your fingertips, there is plenty of cheap steel knocking around too if you go after midnight to the local encampment.

 

P.s. baldie, do you need a teaboy or floor sweeper, my day rate is 50p and no paye tax or NI worries, im happy to work for nowt although i hear some people are really greedy and wotk to pay bills to live

 

 

 

Any tips for removing tea from a monitor....?

[Chris]

The mark up on a quality watch such as omega is 100%, I know this as I was once passed the wrong file in a shop.

 

Nothing to do with mods but just felt the need to chip in!

[achosenman]

The mark up on a quality watch such as omega is 100%, I know this as I was once passed the wrong file in a shop.

 

Nothing to do with mods but just felt the need to chip in!

 

Yep thats not in the least bit surprising considering what the gold jewellery market is like.

 

However in a free market economy, the price of anything is only what someone is willing to pay...not what it costs to produce.

The only way to force a price reduction in any market is to undercut the competition.

 

ATB

[darkstar66]

Looks like a whole new flock of moderators are about to appear on the market that will be a quarter of the current prices. There is without question a market for a product made by someone with a machine shop, no r&d, no RFD, no liability insurance who are unwilling to submit test models for proof that for 50 quid will weigh 400g, resist gas cutting and corrosion for a minimum of 5000 rounds over 10 years use and cut at least 40dB from all calibres.

 

You two crack on with that and i promise a fortune at your fingertips, there is plenty of cheap steel knocking around too if you go after midnight to the local encampment.

 

P.s. baldie, do you need a teaboy or floor sweeper, my day rate is 50p and no paye tax or NI worries, im happy to work for nowt although i hear some people are really greedy and wotk to pay bills to live

 

Hatzi,

 

An interesting post, its always good to hear sarcasm as a constructive way forward in a conversation, reminds me of being back in school. Stating the obvious in a conversation in a negative way gets amazing responses. If you want to vent frustration do it in a more positive way.

 

Im fully aware everyone is allowed there opinion but lets be constructive about this chaps im only asking for facts and figures to justify the expense

[Akeld]

DM80's used to be really cheap, then the VCR act and a load of other red tape got involved and now he's pretty much the same as everyone else. No one can be expected to work for free and once premises, insurance, rates, tax and bills are taken into account, anyone wishing to keep their head above water has to pass that cost on. I do also agree that they should be cheaper, I always wondered if the cost would come down if they ever came off ticket and they could be sent direct

[eldon]

I always wondered if the cost would come down if they ever came off ticket and they could be sent direct

 

Interesting point!

[Gunsgobang88]

Looks like a whole new flock of moderators are about to appear on the market that will be a quarter of the current prices. There is without question a market for a product made by someone with a machine shop, no r&d, no RFD, no liability insurance who are unwilling to submit test models for proof that for 50 quid will weigh 400g, resist gas cutting and corrosion for a minimum of 5000 rounds over 10 years use and cut at least 40dB from all calibres.

 

You two crack on with that and i promise a fortune at your fingertips, there is plenty of cheap steel knocking around too if you go after midnight to the local encampment.

 

P.s. baldie, do you need a teaboy or floor sweeper, my day rate is 50p and no paye tax or NI worries, im happy to work for nowt although i hear some people are really greedy and wotk to pay bills to live

Splendid! Having seen one of the cheaper centrefire mods. on the market self-dissasemble last weekend and go flying down range I am firmly of the opinion that you get what you pay for. The shock of firing undid the small amount of thread that keeps the modules together and turned the user's rifle into a home made grenade launcher,

 

Alan

[Hatzi]

It was constructive, im just outlining the requirements for your mod design but if it's more than £50 its a rip off.

 

It was also constructive to Dell, baldie will help boost sales mow he needs a new monitor, lets just hope he can fit the 70" plasma screen in his Veyron.

 

Ok then, on a serious note, part of my job revolves around my fly's eye view of what happens inside the industry from manufacturers and distributors to shops and shooters. The ones generally found to be very wealthy have either been born into money or have added shooting elements to existing engineering or other business interests. I can think of one manufacturer who although driving an extremely nice car can also be found at all hours of the day or sometimes night on occasion grafting his curly kale arse off running machines that to the untrained eye 'do everything on their own'.

 

As for retail, there are many items that can be passed on for a quick profit but you have to deal with a damned hard customer, the 'public' in general. When you sell a watch at 100% markup you accept if you wish to retain a teputation, that customer has bought a lifetimes worth of customer service which on a watch could be a lifetime. The number of crap shooters who blame every little thing on their supplier is immense and taking a mid as an example, can require a delicate re-education of their approach to equipment. An hour on a phone is an hour of a traders life that could have made money elsewhere but no, it has been hiven as part of the price of the kit.

 

He will laugh at this if he remembers but i once listened to a customer of a 'smith on this forum complain that a recently rebarrelled rifle required re-zeroing. The daft pillock had had a 24" factory tube replaced eith a 32" heavy tube for FTR and thought something must be wrong with the work done. I complement that man on his calm explaination to the customer who will no doubt have been a pain in the backside from start to finish on that gun.

 

Im done ranting now, just learn to take an objective view of the ups and downs of the world and walk a mile in a mans shoes before you judge him.

 

Forgive all typos, im doing 243mph in my Veyron at turn 7 on the nurburgring and buttons on my phone are small.

[darkstar66]

It was constructive, im just outlining the requirements for your mod design but if it's more than £50 its a rip off.

 

It was also constructive to Dell, baldie will help boost sales mow he needs a new monitor, lets just hope he can fit the 70" plasma screen in his Veyron.

 

Ok then, on a serious note, part of my job revolves around my fly's eye view of what happens inside the industry from manufacturers and distributors to shops and shooters. The ones generally found to be very wealthy have either been born into money or have added shooting elements to existing engineering or other business interests. I can think of one manufacturer who although driving an extremely nice car can also be found at all hours of the day or sometimes night on occasion grafting his curly kale arse off running machines that to the untrained eye 'do everything on their own'.

 

As for retail, there are many items that can be passed on for a quick profit but you have to deal with a damned hard customer, the 'public' in general. When you sell a watch at 100% markup you accept if you wish to retain a teputation, that customer has bought a lifetimes worth of customer service which on a watch could be a lifetime. The number of crap shooters who blame every little thing on their supplier is immense and taking a mid as an example, can require a delicate re-education of their approach to equipment. An hour on a phone is an hour of a traders life that could have made money elsewhere but no, it has been hiven as part of the price of the kit.

 

He will laugh at this if he remembers but i once listened to a customer of a 'smith on this forum complain that a recently rebarrelled rifle required re-zeroing. The daft pillock had had a 24" factory tube replaced eith a 32" heavy tube for FTR and thought something must be wrong with the work done. I complement that man on his calm explaination to the customer who will no doubt have been a pain in the backside from start to finish on that gun.

 

Im done ranting now, just learn to take an objective view of the ups and downs of the world and walk a mile in a mans shoes before you judge him.

 

Forgive all typos, im doing 243mph in my Veyron at turn 7 on the nurburgring and buttons on my phone are small.

 

 

Hatzi,

 

Well one thing i can take from your reply is that you are indeed passionate about the sport! I am too and it seems you may have taken my post in the wrong light. I dont need to walk in anyone's shoes as i am not criticising individuals who work hard for their passion. I also not complaining about poor worksmanship of a product i have bought. I am simply asking for justification via figures for the price of a mod?

 

I can go to Joe West and have a unique stock built for £250 with many hours of work put in to it, and appreciate thats money well spent and deserved.

 

Or i can buy a well designed and built mass produced mod which took minutes to manufacture for the same price? Im not questioning the quality just the price!

 

I can buy a laptop with a century of R and D millions of man hours and billions of dollars in outlay Ffor £300. Moderators, for all your protest and tales of complexity, are simple designs in comparison that an automotive student with gas flow knowledge and CAD can design in hours. We have a common enemy in legislation that over complicates and makes small scale production impossible for the likes of me. But this is the same hurdle all businesses have to jump.

 

I say again why does a mass produced, simple but effectively designed mod cost hundreds? Is it just a case of just because? Or is it supply and demand, both perhaps?

[Hatzi]

I have friends and family to whom my time and efforts are given freely, i have busines acquaintances with whom money often never changes hands but favours either way are not forgotten.

 

Any other time i spend needs to earn me something so unlesss i enjoy doing it, i aim to profit from it and that seems to me how the world works so people can afford to live. Is a man charging £45 per hour for a lifetimes skills, knowledge and ability ripping you off because during that hour the air he is breathing is free? Does he have to at some stage recoup the 1/4 million pound cost of an advanced cnc machine or the £100 per hour running costs of his building's electric bills?

 

Please do not quote this post, i can hold on to a conversation and all you will do is make it pages on pages too long and after this i doubt i will reply on this topic again anyway as it is pointless discussing it and my time is worth money so either i am enjoying this or trying to prove myself correct to massage my ego, i dont know.

 

Actually im sat in a traffic jam and bored :-)

[Davy]

Full liability insurance is incredibly costly for items designed and built in house, another level up on rifle building, especially if youa re building for outside of the UK/Europe (Our first quotes certainly made my eyes water!) I do wonder how many are skimping in this area, plus a properly designed and manufactured moderator or any other pressure bearing item does take time and capital investment to bring to market, people need to recoup these costs.

 

The other thing to consider is the UK market is limited due to the low number of shooters so unless you are shipping globally it is going to be hard to hit a decent volume, the UK based suppressor manufactures are not not churning out and selling 30,000 units/PA over here so costs will be higher.

[achosenman]

Its interesting to see both sides of the argument.

 

Darkstar66 the cost of laptops plus R&D etc is not really relevant since the market warrants such expenditures and will still return a healthy profit due to the sheer numbers sold.

The shooting fraternity in the UK is tiny and would not support such extravagance.

 

Hatzi surely the cost of a CNC machine is less relevant than you make out since it would not be purchased to produce moderators exclusively. They are expensive and a sound business case would have been established. Also the purchase cost can be ameliorated through standard accounting practices. E.G Third Eye use CNC to produce mods...but thats just a sideline for their machines, not a primary purpose.

 

ATB