breaking in!!!

[silentsoulsleave308holes]

andrew

 

the fact is your dead right

 

monkey see monkey do

 

we'll just smile to our selves

 

on another forum gale got the guy who started it to admit it

 

and none of that that which promotes growth and vigour was around before he started

 

the moly thing makes me laugh,,,,,at work we are stockist for and daily use moly slip and moly compound but for those who do not know molly slip/compound we the engineering ind use it as a cutting aid so it doesnt protect metal on metal very well but aids cutting/milling/drilling etc and we have to wipe it off after and oil the work piece coz it makes the steel rust

[Guest Smeagle]

I wasn't going to post, I seriously wasn't because I can't be bothered with an argument. Especially with a fool.

 

But I just cannot believe what I am reading.

 

I have been shooting for close to 30 years a pro shooter in one form or another for 25 years and I have never read such rubbish, there is just so many issues and nonsense it is hard to know where to start. I am being serious there is virtually no part of what you are saying that is fact. I pretty much had you pegged from your first post, you have read some stuff that you clearly don't understand and this obsession with Gale, well he is one of many. The plasma thing, it is actually a slang term used by comp shooters to refer to moly dust or moly coating, which is where you have read it, by the way there is different types of moly and the stuff you claim to use bears no resemblance to the stuff used to coat projectiles, and it certainly has nothing to do with copper dust, there is no copper dust. I really don't know where that came from I can only assume you made it up. The copper is deposited by friction, it's basically rubbed of by the rifling, and it is not even if you cut a barrel lengthwise you will see that it is always deposited heavier nearer the throat, it is cut into the projectile by the lands, that's how it forms a seal and that's why you can clean it off, copper like aluminium is actually combustible, like dogfox said its used in cone charges and HESH rounds and if formed a powder in the barrel, well need I go on. Brazed to the lands, if it did that it would be basically welded in there and you think you could remove it with a brush and some solvent, what are you on.

 

Don't clean the barrel, or is it now clean it but not often, but certainly don't run it, but its okay to pour hot lead down it.

 

What the spiral staircase can anyone seriously say to that. Make up your own minds lads but don't go pouring hot lead down your barrels.

 

I really don't want to get into this, I really don't, but there is a moral obligation, sillysodshootsshit you are really talking utter rubbish.

[duey]

Well

it certainly is 'interesting ' reading

 

Ian

[Guest Smeagle]

Sorry forgot to answer a question, the quote came from one of your own over there in the UK I thought it was only fair, it was from the HPS target rifles manual. But the virtual same write up is used in the dealers manuals for HS Precision, Remington, Sako etc etc

 

As Col rightly says follow the manafactures instructions.

[silentsoulsleave308holes]

lmao

[silentsoulsleave308holes]

ok GOD

[Guest Smeagle]

Well what are you waiting for, that's hardly an answer.

 

Just as I though, full of it. You see ds1 it would seem your hero is nothing of the sort, just another pretender who has read a little but knows nothing.

 

I do apologise to the other members on the board, but you see the true measure now.

 

So anyway over to you stilltalkingshite.

[Andrew]

Come on Smeagle. Tell us how you really feel...~Andrew

[silentsoulsleave308holes]

smeagel sorry mate I been working all day so havent been able to go on line

 

listen first of all I wish to humbly apologize for the following

 

a) I am sorry I had no idea that you were the proud maker of more comp winning and record setting barrels than Mr Mac am I am sorry for denting your pride and for thinking he knew more than you about making barrels and shooting them etc etc

 

so again I am sorry

 

I was not aware that you had degrees in physics, chemistry and engineering so please execpt my apologies there (I wasnt to know was I) I truly didnt know that the copper mixing with the burning gasses and turning to dust was false and that all that copper down my new tube was actually fouling as I coudnt see any steel exposed bore and so assumed that what I had read about on the internet from people I thought were brainier than me must be right about the plasma

 

so please please except my apologies there (I did not mean to offend your inteligence

 

c) me being a dum ass I thought that there was only one molybdenum disuphide and when I took the abbey gun moly grease into work to compare its cutting aid compared to our moly slip paste I forgot that the cutting test would be unfair because I had ground the tool to the wrong sharpness on the lathe and couldnt remember how to sharpen drill bits even though I should remember bec ause it was included in my nvq lev 3 fabricating engineering welding tig mig plasma arc and other codes and passes

 

I thought if I do a test to see if one protects and the other aids but forgot about my stupidity in sharpening the tools wrong so I please ask if I can take back what I said (pretty please)

 

d) as I have looked and being thick as two short planks I cant find it so maybe you can help...........I would like to find and ammend the part where I un knowingly wrote that people should never clean their barrels as thyis is obviously wrong so I would like to ammend it so if you could be so kind as to find it for me I will be forever in your debt as such a statement could land me with a court summons for wrongly informing someone who followed my guide and injured themselfves

 

e) I am truely sorry for affending you in your many years experience of shooting and by now I imagine that your house must be gleaming with trophies and awards for all that you have acomplished in this sport and I imagine it must be a great honour to shoot for your country

 

please please except my apologies mate

 

and I bow to you and all you have acheived

 

would you like me to leave the site as a punishment for all my wrong doings?

 

 

oh just one more thing....... what was that thing about "I got some russian for you"??????????

[Guest northernchris]

Silent

 

 

You better go and stand in the corner mate

 

 

PS nice to see a fellow Fabby on here

[silentsoulsleave308holes]

yeh but I dont know that which promotes growth and vigour about that which promotes growth and vigour

 

whats your specialty?????what kinda stuff do ya do

 

I trained as a sheety (shitty) from their I grew out out marine, pharma, specialist balustrade, kitchen etc etc (stainless copper glass) but if I can melt it I weld it

 

mainly weld alu ,stainless304 316 brass now cause I dont like anything but tig and complicated parts (dont like getting my hands dirty any more, become a wus)

 

i been making jan lukes(homers incase others are reading) muzzle brakes high seats front and rear rests reloading press stands etc etc as we been a little quiet

 

what do you make????

 

better go back to my naughty corner now

 

nice to know your a fabby as well mate, makes me not the only nutty grumpie old git on eeeeerr

[charly hunter]

I think he makes people pissed off

[ds1]

Well Silent, I would offer to come and suffer in the corner with you.......but we would only get accused of talking about him Mc..........

 

Ps. That muzzle brake you did on Charly Hunters stick does look the mutts nuts.

 

David.

[charly hunter]

Well Silent, I would offer to come and suffer in the corner with you.......but we would only get accused of talking about him Mc..........

 

Ps. That muzzle brake you did on Charly Hunters stick does look the mutts nuts.

 

David.

 

He didn't really make it pard, it appears he is to dumb to have done it so I guess he must have a pixie at the bottom of his garden

 

ds1 you are so right it does look good, and the quality is out standing, best od all it was just £35. plus P&P not that I paid the p&p as I only live around the corner

[Guest northernchris]

A bit of this and a bit of that

 

99% of the time i Tig mostly T45,316L and various Alloys oh and the odd bit of Ti.

Fabbing wise i mostly do oneoff/proto work and comp car cages/components ( i did several years at Prodrive and other proper motorsport teams )

[craigyboy]

Chris I seen a program about prodrive rally team a while back, the strenghing and cage work that goes into the bodys of modern WRC cars is unbelieavble, makes my pinto MK2 look like a bucket of shite, the welding in the cage of it looks more like chicken that which promotes growth and vigour.

[Guest northernchris]

So are you saying it wouldnt pass F.I.A scrutineering then

 

I started there as a gearbox tech which was really intersting ,it was just when they started playing with paddle shift this was WAY before the F1 twats started useing it!! That and a few other things came from rallying not the other way around as the F1 lot would lead you to believe.I then progressed onto being a devolpment tech working on a generic box for the Skoda and Seat WRC teams.After getting bored of that i went into Fabrication and welding.

It was a cracking job BUT it involved alot of hard work and travelling and at the end of the day when we where doing pre-event tests we worked all over europe which was nice but a workshop in Sweden is no differant to one in Greece except the temp /weather.

 

Another plus is i got to work with some great people like Colin,Richard who both sadly passed away in the prime of their lifes.

[Guest Smeagle]

Fabricator eh, well it must be a hard habit to break.

 

As I thought it was pretty obvious from post one that you had just read a little on google. I knew at once where it was heading, why because the entire premise of your argument is based on what you have read about G McMillian, well I really didn't want to get into for several reasons, not least that he is not here to add his wisdom, but here is the thing there are those who know and those who know jack that which promotes growth and vigour and you are the latter. Lets start at the beginning shall we, just how well did you know him, best buds where we, you have obviously spent some time on the firing line with him or was it sitting out at night in one of his stripy deck chairs in front of his old crappy Winnebago in the Arizona desert sipping Wild Turkey with a dash, as the soft desert breeze caressed your cheek, shooting the that which promotes growth and vigour and telling tales unto the wee hours.

 

You see those who know, know they don't just read it on google, because you only get half the story. Now let me make this clear, very clear he was a great man, his accomplishments are second to none, he was one of the true pioneers of our sport one of the original Arizonian Varminters, but he was also human. He is also the source of what you are hanging your hat on. But as you and he were obviously close you can tell me how many barrels he actually made, ones that he laid his grubby hands on. Bet your thinking that it was in the thousands, well it's a very easy number to remember being zero, now his brother Pat he made a few in his time also shot a few as well.

 

So how did all of this come about, well lets start with a history lesson as you are obviously lacking in that area. Where exactly did running in come from. Well it actually comes from the first rifles those made in the 1700 and 1800, they had to fire lead balls which are soft. The rifling was cut by hand and was rough this scored the ball and sent it of course. They discovered however then when the rifle had been shot a bit and cleaned that it shot better. So they started getting an undersized ball and dipping it in wax and shooting it and cleaning, this was running in, it was recommended by Mortimer, it was also incidentally recommended by Paul Peter Mauser. There is a small problem here isn't there, have you seen it yet. Well unless GM was immortal or a Vampire and being dead I am kind of not leaning in that direction then he must have been very very old to have been around when it was invented. Or maybe there is another explianation, you see those that know, know the old range saying,

 

'a light wind is a breeze a heavy wind is a Gale".

 

You see this is why I didn't want to get into it, in his life he was a great man one of the true leaders, his knowledge was truly amazing but he did have the odd strange idea and once settled upon it he wouldn't change direction, he would just how shall we say bend the facts to suite his argument, it must be that single minded approach that makes a true shooting champion. You see in his time he also laid claim to inventing fluted barrels, stepped crowns, pillar bedding, floating barrels, fibre glass stocks indeed if it hadn't been for him inventing gunpowder where would we be today. I remember him going on about the Lee Enfield best rifle you Brits ever built. The 303 best long range cartridge ever made, he claimed that he had been asked to build a custom rifle to defeat the boys at Bisley. But that the old LE out shot everything with the 303 and held every record at 2300 yrd. He went on for years and years with this tale, no one had the heart to tell him there is no such range at Bisley. He had a real thing for Bisley that was his dream, Apart from him actually building the rifle himself, he was a funny fellow, but being so great has its draw backs, no one dare set the record straight. This is why I didn't want to get into it.

 

You may ask and it is a fair question if he didn't run his barrels in how did he achieve and accomplish so much. Well its real simple he had a method and it works, shoot to a quarter of its life, use it for comp for half its life and use it as a garden stake for the remainder of it's life. So I suppose in one way you are correct you don't need t run it in if you don't mind throwing it away halfway through it's life. There is also a unconfirmed and dodgy report that his Bro Pat used to run them in without telling him, but you didn't hear that from me. But like I said I really didn't want to get into because he did so much and it really gives me the shites to see an ill informed deciduous tree who frankly isn't fit to suck the juices from his decomposing corpses jock strap hanging of his coat tails.

 

You are right though it is an honour to shoot for your country and I hope one day that you get to enjoy the privilege, but you are not going to do that on a false premise.

 

I don't know about standing in the corner but when the grown ups are talking its time for the children to go to bed. And no you shouldnt leave the forum, because how are you going to learn anything, I will if I may be so bold offer some advice, instead of flapping your lips about what you don't know try shutting the spiral staircase up and listning, also try putting brain into gear before typing fingers.

 

There was other that which promotes growth and vigour in your post but I really can't be bothered with it. Hopefully you have the grace to lay this one to rest.

[Andrew]

"Well it actually comes from the first rifles those made in the 1700 and 1800, they had to fire lead balls which are soft. The rifling was cut by hand and was rough this scored the ball and sent it of course. They discovered however then when the rifle had been shot a bit and cleaned that it shot better. So they started getting an undersized ball and dipping it in wax and shooting it and cleaning, this was running in, it was recommended by Mortimer, it was also incidentally recommended by Paul Peter Mauser."

 

Say what? ~Andrew

[Guest Smeagle]

Ah Andrew I see you have taken issue with a small and insignificant part of my post, am I to understand that you agree wholeheartedly with the rest of it?

 

It is actually a fair comment and I do concede that the formal breaking in or conditioning process did come much later. However even the early gunsmiths and shooters where fully aware of the importance of a smooth or rather burr free bore, they also knew that a rifle or any gun shot better after a few rounds and cleaning they may not have understood the science or the reason behind it but they knew it from trial and error. Its like the old hunters, why didn't they break them in, well firstly most of their rifles were not precision instruments, nor did they know any better but indeed the early hunters, would simply shoot a beast and clean it, the old books many of them emphasis the importance of cleaning the rifle after virtually every shot and certainly at the end of each day. If your cleaning the rifle after virtually every shot there as you can see is little point in running it in as you are doing that anyway. Of course with the black powder guns they had to be foul free so they where scrubbed and boiled out. So you do have reason to ask for a clarification and I am sorry for not making it more clear.

 

But while your here perhaps you would be so kind as to regale us with your undoubted knowledge on American Military arms, being a collector and enthusiast and what the recommended process is with them, if I may point you in the direction of the M24 manual. Whats Remington have to say on the matter in the military manual when dealing with Sniper rifles, or for that matter Colt, while your there you also might want to check the US department of defence policy on breaking in barrels and the recommended process. You see they actually tested it as they do all things in the US. When you have found it out would you be so kind as to post it so that we can all be educated.

 

There was something else, ah yes it may interest you to know that the British Army has issued a cleaning rod since the 80s or at least since the introduction of the SA80, granted it is a crappy one but it is still a cleaning rod, by the way the L96 comes with a nice shiny stainless cleaning rod, with a red handle. Just out of interest, I like to be helpful.

[silentsoulsleave308holes]

Thank You.... God

For the wonderful history lesson,

and for using lots of little words....otherwise I mighta been confoosed.

 

[Andrew]

Actually, I collect Finnish and British military weapons as a specialty. I have little interest US martial arms; especially modern ones.

 

I am however a fan of American target shooting and the gun makers from 1860's through the 1880s and I know that target rifles of the finest grade were delivered in shooting condition with loading equipment custom made to the rifle. Molds, patch cutters, and such. Rifles were cleaned after every shot so a "running in" of sorts, occurred naturally in the course of shooting. It was, however, well recognized that the act of shooting with black powder -both in muzzle loaders and the later Schuetzen guns -degraded accuracy. Black powder is, of course, made up of nearly half non-combustible solids; and these had an abrasive effect and every shooter realized that the life of his barrel diminished with each shot. I have never read much on Mortimer rifles but firing an undersized, wax lubricated ball didn't sound right, though I don't doubt your sources.

 

For my part, and with regard to muzzleloading target rifles, I can recommend the following:

 

"The Kentucky Rifle", Dillon

"The Bullets Flight", Franklin W. Mann (get the one with the foot notes by Harry Pope if you can)

 

and lastly

 

"The Muzzleloading Caplock Rifle" by Ned Roberts.

 

As to running in barrels, I couldn't give a hoot. I also don't think it's worth the effort to argue about. If is works for you, fine, if not, fine. What I really can't understand is why you, Smeagle old Bud, are so worked up about it. I find your attitude puzzling and your language offensive for public forum. So someone has got it all wrong in your eyes. So what? You're not convincing anyone about anything except your mounting mania. We're all friends here, or should be. Let it go.

~Andrew

[Guest Smeagle]

My pleasure stilltalkingshite wouldn't want you to be confoosed.

 

Now anything else I can help you with while I am here? tying your laces, wiping your own arse?

 

Well Andrew that is fair enough, the undersized ball was more like one that had been 'roughed' and then lubricated. They ran them in as you say at the smiths.

 

My attitude is simple unfortunately I have a low tolerance to bullshit artist and pretenders who use other's reputations, especially those who are no longer with us to big note themselves. And yes I am a straight talker, that is in response to the tone to which I am answering, walk the walk or go home I don't care either way, but if you want to shout your mouth off know what your talking about. I will and have helped anyone who asks. I also respect those who know what they are about and those who are learning as we all are.

 

I don't like to get of on the wrong foot but if you bullshit me I will put you straight. By the way Andrew he was given fair warning not to BS but he tried it on, so save your tears.

 

By the way thanks for the recommendations I will certainly look into it, I am a bit of a fan of the early stuff. Just learning a little bit though.

[ds1]

Smeagle,

 

Seeing as how silent has seen the error of his ways and is now well and truly repentant. I would like to offer you my sincere and hart felt apology aslo.

 

However being as thick as I am, I cannot find the words to truly express my remorse, so I will do what I have done before....quote someone else, in this case for your edification the Cornish poet Denzil Penberthy who nicely summed up my feelings in his sonnet

 

"Go ye forth and multiply".

[Andrew]

Tears? Great crocodile tears, indeed. You'll like those books. All but the Dillon book has been reprinted recently. The Dillon book is a nutbuster to find for a price short of a body part. ~Andrew