gbal Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 I agree that there is more than just "nostalgia" involved with a .222 Remington. A custom build with attention to detail would grab a lot of attention at 100 yards. I have a standard Model 70 Winchester in Triple Deuce that will shoot in the two's with standard, off the shelf components. In a good BR gun it's just up to the shooter: The rifle will take care of itself. JMHO, of course.~Andrew Well,of course there may be some good rifles in other chamberings-but a)where are the 1/2 inch best 3 shot group PPCs,and crucially b)why are the competition results for decades 99% PPC? There are good reasons why even the best wind readers and shooters don't win with the ...(pick your non PPC favourite!).They did (eg 222rem-but not since the PPC came along in 1975-and outperformed everything,virtually every competition).I can't think of any chambering that has so totally dominated any area of rifle shooting.99% of top places for 30 years?And others have been tried-still do!Yes,for the 100/200 yard Bench Rest shooter the choice takes care of itself-It's 6PPC. PS I like my 222(s) but the occasional .3 just won't do-remember in those same conditions the 6PPCs wil be in the low .2s or less.Equivalent for field shooting,agreed,but competition? PPS when is the next competition in your lovely part of Montana?! george Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 Well,of course there may be some good rifles in other chamberings-but a)where are the 1/2 inch best 3 shot group PPCs,and crucially b)why are the competition results for decades 99% PPC? There are good reasons why even the best wind readers and shooters don't win with the ...(pick your non PPC favourite!).They did (eg 222rem-but not since the PPC came along in 1975-and outperformed everything,virtually every competition).I can't think of any chambering that has so totally dominated any area of rifle shooting.99% of top places for 30 years?And others have been tried-still do!Yes,for the 100/200 yard Bench Rest shooter the choice takes care of itself-It's 6PPC. PS I like my 222(s) but the occasional .3 just won't do-remember in those same conditions the 6PPCs wil be in the low .2s or less.Equivalent for field shooting,agreed,but competition? PPS when is the next competition in your lovely part of Montana?! george I don't shoot BR in Montana. I shoot prairiedogs! I never was a great BR shooter, even when I lived in the south west and participated. I never could afford to be competitive. I switched to cast bullet bench rest in the eighties. I am not pitting the .222 against the 6mm. I am simply saying that the .222 is a very accurate cartridge despite its.... age. Or no less accurate than it was because of the advent of the 6mm.~Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manitou210 Posted October 30, 2012 Report Share Posted October 30, 2012 Hi Mark, If the question is:what cartridge has the best competition record for group size at 100 and 200 yards,then the answer is 6PPC.This has been so since it's introduction around 1975.The evidence is overwhelming-of course,now and then a few excellent performances come in from something else-though quite often it's a ppc variant,but bearing in mind the 1000s of winning groups fired at each US big competition,and number that have been in the .1s,and .0s -'connsistently dominant' is truly the word for the 6PPC.I am sure Vince will have details,but the last time I looked,all the 100/200y UKBRA records were held by PPC.You can check USA etc results via the web-even 6mmB,especially R can't disagree.It really is that good,and for that long.I can't think of any other cartridge that has so totally dominated any shooting competition to the same extent for more than 30 years.All the ,ore remarkable given the considerable effort that has gone into finding a better one for this purpose,but we should be grateful to those who try. The 222 rem -and close derivatives-had a run for a few years prior to the ppc,and it's a dandy cartridge,but there is a reason it's not used anymore-ppc is just better.Of course,all this derives from custom built rifles-nothing else will be competitive,but there have been some 'factory' ppcs- eg Ruger,Cooper and Sako,chambered for the factory round - 6PPC USA,and the 22 version. Which is where your original question comes in-if you do not want to do any neck turning etc-then that is an option.Custom build?-not really-tight neck and very careful prepping do pay dividents at the serious level.Of course,you can neck turn brass for factory chamber...Alternative that comes close,and no neck turn etc- and maybe has an edge beyond 200y is the 6BR. PPC and BR are rather pleasant to shoot too-and not 'out of proportion' expensive-which is a bonus when just shooting casually or for fun. There is a considerable literature on all this,but no serious dissent-the evidence is overwhelming.Just google 6ppc,6BR,UKBRA,NBRSA,WBC-just because it is to hand,here are the results from the 2005 World BR championships (from Ratigan,Extreme Rifle Accuracy):Top 20 light varmint,19 are 6PPC;heavy varmint Top 20,19 are 6PPC.The other one?-12th and 6th respectively: mike r,with a '22-100'-essentially a short ppc. As Churchill famously said,the Americans will do the right thing...but will try everything else first.Simples!! There is no arguing that the 6ppc &6br are great cartridges and own 90+ of records in benchrest shooting, compared to the 222 shooting 52gr bullets out of a 1/14 twist with Bc of 250 but I have not been beat in Fclass by either, The new what we call the super deuces 223 Rem with fast twist shooting 80gr and 90 gr Bergers with 450 to 550 BC are some awsome guns. I may have shot a record on friday past first 3 shots ay 300y .071 and here is another shot just before Canadian Nation F class in Aug at 300y Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brown dog Posted October 30, 2012 Report Share Posted October 30, 2012 There is no arguing that the 6ppc &6br are great cartridges and own 90+ of records in benchrest shooting, compared to the 222 shooting 52gr bullets out of a 1/14 twist with Bc of 250 but I have not been beat in Fclass by either, The new what we call the super deuces 223 Rem with fast twist shooting 80gr and 90 gr Bergers with 450 to 550 BC are some awsome guns. I may have shot a record on friday past first 3 shots ay 300y .071 and here is another shot just before Canadian Nation F class in Aug at 300y Wow. Fantastic shooting! Any chance of a pic of the rifle set up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gun Pimp Posted October 30, 2012 Report Share Posted October 30, 2012 Guys, One 'lucky' target proves little - especially if it's only three shots. You don't get lucky so often with five-shot groups. I was having a look at our UKBRA records - all shot in competition, all five-shot groups. You'll see that the 300 yard record is 0.654 inches. The rifle? A bog-standard 308 Remington PSS! Shot in 2006 by Russ Howard. (we only shot 300yd BR for a year or so). What does that prove? Anyone can get lucky - once! If you really want to know how accurate your rifle is - just come to one of our benchrest comps. We got a good UKV turn-out for the Fly Shoot - why not try benchrest! Our first 600 yd comp. is on November 17th. Vince Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AckImp Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 Guys, One 'lucky' target proves little - especially if it's only three shots. You don't get lucky so often with five-shot groups. I was having a look at our UKBRA records - all shot in competition, all five-shot groups. You'll see that the 300 yard record is 0.654 inches. The rifle? A bog-standard 308 Remington PSS! Shot in 2006 by Russ Howard. (we only shot 300yd BR for a year or so). What does that prove? Anyone can get lucky - once! If you really want to know how accurate your rifle is - just come to one of our benchrest comps. We got a good UKV turn-out for the Fly Shoot - why not try benchrest! Our first 600 yd comp. is on November 17th. Vince Totally agree with Vince. My best ever group was a .411" 5 shot group at 300m from prone about 3/4 years ago. The problem? I've still only done it once! In fact, the next group that day was over an inch in exactly the same conditions. Everyone gets a wee bit of luck now and again but the difference is being able to do it in competition and being able to do it again and again. To get back to the original question re. short range, the 6PPC has the most trophies to it's name and appears to be able to perform consistently and has done for a long time. Fads have come and gone but the kit lists are still dominated by 6PPC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbal Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 Totally agree with Vince. My best ever group was a .411" 5 shot group at 300m from prone about 3/4 years ago. The problem? I've still only done it once! In fact, the next group that day was over an inch in exactly the same conditions. Everyone gets a wee bit of luck now and again but the difference is being able to do it in competition and being able to do it again and again. To get back to the original question re. short range, the 6PPC has the most trophies to it's name and appears to be able to perform consistently and has done for a long time. Fads have come and gone but the kit lists are still dominated by 6PPC. Quite so.Rather a long time ago Harvey Donaldson defined precision thus;A rifle that can hit a fly at 100 yards,with no more than two shots,provided the fly does not move after the first shot. It is still a pretty good criterion (for rifle and scope clicks).Think about it-if the first shot misses,you correct and have to hit with the next shot-you have very little leeway,so the rifle has to do precisely what you tell it to(and of course you have to be accurate).Maybe we could add,and the wind does not change! So about in the .2s,max. Every time,of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gun Pimp Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 Quite so.Rather a long time ago Harvey Donaldson defined precision thus;A rifle that can hit a fly at 100 yards,with no more than two shots,provided the fly does not move after the first shot. It is still a pretty good criterion (for rifle and scope clicks).Think about it-if the first shot misses,you correct and have to hit with the next shot-you have very little leeway,so the rifle has to do precisely what you tell it to(and of course you have to be accurate).Maybe we could add,and the wind does not change! So about in the .2s,max. Every time,of course. Harvey Donaldson??? That WAS a long time ago............I think we can nail that fly with the first shot now! To be honest - rifle accuracy is unbelievable but, the wind is still there. Vince Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbal Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 Harvey Donaldson??? That WAS a long time ago............I think we can nail that fly with the first shot now! To be honest - rifle accuracy is unbelievable but, the wind is still there. Vince Sorry Vince,you just get the rifle handed to you,it may not be sighted in dead on aim point-most BR rifles aren't,just because we don't want to shoot away the aim point-or its zeroed at 200 yards etc.Given that,HD's criterion sorts the accurate rifles from the 'did it once' ones,given it's meant to have a tad of humour-but also real practicality-it includes accuracy ,as well as precision.A rifleset up that can't shoot sub .2 won't be able to adjust with dependable precision. Agreed it would be more likely these days,though I don't expect all aggs would be under .2 . HD was trying to define the 'accurate rifle' capabilities,not a very ,very accurate rifle-how about a head shot on the fly-you reckon?He was not trying to 'wind' anyone up ! ( and he was aware that a Wasp-even his own pet,was too big) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manitou210 Posted November 2, 2012 Report Share Posted November 2, 2012 Wow. Fantastic shooting! Any chance of a pic of the rifle set up? Barnard S Jewel 30.5" Tru-Flite 1/7 T 12by42x 56mm NF Lapua brass all Prepped Berger bullets Robertson RCI Stock Smith: Ian Robertson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alycidon Posted November 10, 2012 Report Share Posted November 10, 2012 How about a used PRS 6PPC USA 270NK?. May be looking to sell mine shortly as I just dont get time to use it. Last shot at 100BR with the British Benchrest Club at Bisley my novice daughter shot a .3 and several .4s with it off a bench bag and rear bag, fitted with a McClassic stock and a No5 profile Shilen barrel. From memory about 800 rounds fired. Its a vermin/stalking rifle primarily that is a capable BR tool. It wont though be as competitive as a dedicated BR set up which should shoot .2s and .3s. A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxing2night Posted November 11, 2012 Report Share Posted November 11, 2012 How about a used PRS 6PPC USA 270NK?. May be looking to sell mine shortly as I just dont get time to use it. Last shot at 100BR with the British Benchrest Club at Bisley my novice daughter shot a .3 and several .4s with it off a bench bag and rear bag, fitted with a McClassic stock and a No5 profile Shilen barrel. From memory about 800 rounds fired. Its a vermin/stalking rifle primarily that is a capable BR tool. It wont though be as competitive as a dedicated BR set up which should shoot .2s and .3s. A Any pics???? Darrel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian_K Posted November 17, 2012 Report Share Posted November 17, 2012 If you don't want to neck-turn and fire-form brass, then it's got to be 6BR. That's got my name all over it Vince, any recommendations as to barrel/length/twist rate for 100/200yd score competitions?. Got some 80gr Bergers shooting pretty well in a Pac-Nor 4 groove 1:8 with N135, but I'm thinking a 1:12 might be better. However I'm open to any suggestions regards other bullet weights. Brian ps Hi everyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manitou210 Posted January 26, 2013 Report Share Posted January 26, 2013 I talk with Bobby Hart Rw Hart and he claims the most accurate bullet is the .224 back a few years the 222 rem was king of the hill in Benchrest and some fellows still shooting the old deuce. I am making up a benchtrest rifle in 223 rem and will use lapua brass and a 1/8 or 1/7 twist barrel to be able to shoot berger or JLK 80 & 90 gr bullets higher BCs than the 6mm bullets should work better at 300y & 200 We practice for f class at 300m and fellows are shooting pretty consitantly under 1" 5 shot groups quite a few at .600" and less. I didn't want to make this group bigger so I only fired 3 LOL http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c326/manitou210/P1080982.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbal Posted January 26, 2013 Report Share Posted January 26, 2013 I talk with Bobby Hart Rw Hart and he claims the most accurate bullet is the .224 back a few years the 222 rem was king of the hill in Benchrest and some fellows still shooting the old deuce. I am making up a benchtrest rifle in 223 rem and will use lapua brass and a 1/8 or 1/7 twist barrel to be able to shoot berger or JLK 80 & 90 gr bullets higher BCs than the 6mm bullets should work better at 300y & 200 We practice for f class at 300m and fellows are shooting pretty consitantly under 1" 5 shot groups quite a few at .600" and less. I didn't want to make this group bigger so I only fired 3 LOL http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c326/manitou210/P1080982.jpg An interesting idea.The 222 is indeed capable of fine accuracy,as were several other 224s,and it isn't fair to compare across 50 years of progress.But the lack of decent 6mm bullets was a big factor,and when the PPC came in,the 22 version was way behind the 6mm, in big BR competition successes.Still is,like everything else.But the heavier 223 bullets might give an edge at 300,and anyhow it will be interesting to see the 223 given a reasonably comparable chance in a 'proper' BR rifle. All it needs is 5x5 groups under .2 moa aggregate to be podium-and only at 100 yards. F class at 600+ might be more challenging.... george Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alycidon Posted January 26, 2013 Report Share Posted January 26, 2013 Any pics???? Darrel Here you are; in sunnier days!!, not often I get a triple and they were in about 30 mins. A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie Posted January 27, 2013 Report Share Posted January 27, 2013 Re the triple-two v 6PPC comparison, there was of course another short-range cartridge that was BR King of the Hill for some years and came between this pair - the original 6X47mm. For any 'young sprogs' reading this, it had nothing to do with today's Lapua design, rather was a wildcat based on the .222 Rem Magnum case necked up to 6mm. At the time the 22 PPC appeared, the 6X47 had mostly replaced the 222, if nothing else because the heavier 6mm bullet was less wind affected at 200 yards, but within two seasons of Palmisano first competing with the PPC, the 6X47 was dead, at least as far as top US shooters were concerned. There is an interesting insight into this 222 v 6x47 v PPC debate and how much difference the cartridge design really makes and you can read it in Ken Waters' huge book of load development and testing 'Pet Loads', a compilation of years of testing and articles for the US Handloader magazine. Ken wasn't a believer in the PPC and simply didn't accept a different shape case made that much of an improvement in groups. He was sure it was the old competition saga of 'follow the winner'. So, not that long after everybody who was anybody in US Benchrest had changed to the PPC, he got top US gun smith Seely Masker to build him a BR rifle in 6X47mm with the intention of doing a side by side test. He did the full case prep and load development etc. Result? The rifle was good, but not competitive no matter what Waters did. The rifle then went back to Masker who set the barrel back and rechambered it for 6PPC, same chamber neck diameter etc. Result? The rifle shot smaller groups and was competitive. Ken Waters freely admitted he'd been wrong and that the PPC was a step forward over the 222 and 6X47 with the powders and bullets available at the time. As George, Vince and Bruce are saying, nothing much has changed since in the last 20 or 25 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxing2night Posted January 27, 2013 Report Share Posted January 27, 2013 Here you are; in sunnier days!!, not often I get a triple and they were in about 30 mins. A Thank you, that sure is a nice looking rifle Darrel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxing2night Posted January 27, 2013 Report Share Posted January 27, 2013 Been shooting this now for a while,,,,, Awesome calibre,,, 6.5x47 group size was .145 but it was shot on my sighter target?? Did manage to get a .200 on the comp target,, smallest group at three hundred yards .447 smallest group at 600 1.823 I think that most calibre,s will perform solong as the rifle is put together right. Darrel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbal Posted January 27, 2013 Report Share Posted January 27, 2013 Been shooting this now for a while,,,,, Awesome calibre,,, 6.5x47 group size was .145 but it was shot on my sighter target?? Did manage to get a .200 on the comp target,, smallest group at three hundred yards .447 smallest group at 600 1.823 I think that most calibre,s will perform solong as the rifle is put together right. Darrel That's impressive-of course.But in that competition how many 6ppc groups from different shooters were in the .2s or less for 5 shots,of course.?And the 6ppc is just so pleasant to shoot. On the general point,yes-if comparable build etc,some other calibres/rifles will be close to 6ppc,sometimes.But there is a good reason 6ppc totally dominates-it is just that good .And hasn't been too shabby in factory class either,though here it's a much less fair playing field. It would indeed be interesting to see a reasonable sample of alternatives try to be so consistently good-but so far,they presumptious contenders have not succeded,consistently. We don't get to hear about the also rans,notice-but I suspect there are fewer in 6ppc,and an awful lot that are just superb. george Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1066 Posted January 27, 2013 Report Share Posted January 27, 2013 I really like my 6BR - It's accurate, easy to load for, economic with a wide range of powders and bullets readily available, pleasant to shoot, reasonably competitive from 100-600yds (and 1000yds in kind weather). If I was looking for a pure short range bench rifle and hoped to win anything I would go with the 6ppc, for a not too shabby "jack of all trades" my vote goes to the 6br. My thoughts about groups - there is a world of difference between a five shot group and a three shot group and the same can be said about a consecutive series of five shot groups. It's easy if you discount the odd flyer and the called shot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbal Posted January 27, 2013 Report Share Posted January 27, 2013 I really like my 6BR - It's accurate, easy to load for, economic with a wide range of powders and bullets readily available, pleasant to shoot, reasonably competitive from 100-600yds (and 1000yds in kind weather). If I was looking for a pure short range bench rifle and hoped to win anything I would go with the 6ppc, for a not too shabby "jack of all trades" my vote goes to the 6br. My thoughts about groups - there is a world of difference between a five shot group and a three shot group and the same can be said about a consecutive series of five shot groups. It's easy if you discount the odd flyer and the called shot 1066-agreed! For 100/200yds the 6ppc is undisputed top chambering. For 300+the 6BR is superior,and much more so as distance increases, and at least has potential to 1000 in very good conditions. The BR 6ppcs-and good 6BRs made to the same standard-just don't shoot substantialy different sized groups-you don't need to keep a best .2,as the 6ppc will do another one anytime-see the 25 shot aggregates in the low .2s .If it's over .25 you know it's your fault,and could post it as a 'dollop,not as a great bit of shooting.Individual rifles in other chamberings might come close,but very few are so consistent as the 6ppc,either within the same rifle or over large numbers of rifles . But the 6BR comes very close,and is far more range/distance capable for anyone who is not an out and out 100 BR shooter.I like the 30 and 7 BR too.But the 6 BR is the best all round.-queen of many trades? george Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brillo Posted February 25, 2013 Report Share Posted February 25, 2013 Yikes - I thought I was getting tight grouos with 6.5x47 until I saw those pics. Practice makes perfect (I hope). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxing2night Posted February 25, 2013 Report Share Posted February 25, 2013 Yikes - I thought I was getting tight grouos with 6.5x47 until I saw those pics. Practice makes perfect (I hope). Come to the 100yrd comps at the Diggle starting on the 6 April and you will see it shoot,, I use it fot 100yrd benchrest and 600yrd benchrest Awesome,, Darrel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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