What about electronic dispensers???RCBS chargemaster???

[craigyboy]

Following on from my post yesterday about fancy powder meausres I am now looking at electronic dispensers as well. I done a fair bit of reaserch and all the reviews I have read point out that the RCBS chargemaster is a very good piece of kit and easily accurate enough to compete with a good set of balance beam scales so its got me thinking about one of those now, I know Stag didnt think much of his but from what I have read the ones made from the last 3 years take less than 3 minutes to warm up and stabalize, throw an averge size 44g charge in less than 12 seconds and throw with a constant under 0.1g consitencey which is probably as good as I can do with my scales taking into account the human factor with them. They also appear to not have any problems with tube lights above them and due to having a cover on the pan drafts dont matter so much, they sound about perfect to me. I know the lyman and pact scales are not so good but the RCBS do seem like they would work great anyone else out there using them?

 

Also the price in the us is very good, do you think if they were brought here and you had to use an adapter to run them off our 240 supply it would affect them, maybe there are more sophisticated adapters out there which really regulate the voltage accuratley and would help it work perfect.

[badsworth]

Following on from my post yesterday about fancy powder meausres I am now looking at electronic dispensers as well. I done a fair bit of reaserch and all the reviews I have read point out that the RCBS chargemaster is a very good piece of kit and easily accurate enough to compete with a good set of balance beam scales so its got me thinking about one of those now, I know Stag didnt think much of his but from what I have read the ones made from the last 3 years take less than 3 minutes to warm up and stabalize, throw an averge size 44g charge in less than 12 seconds and throw with a constant under 0.1g consitencey which is probably as good as I can do with my scales taking into account the human factor with them. They also appear to not have any problems with tube lights above them and due to having a cover on the pan drafts dont matter so much, they sound about perfect to me. I know the lyman and pact scales are not so good but the RCBS do seem like they would work great anyone else out there using them?

 

Also the price in the us is very good, do you think if they were brought here and you had to use an adapter to run them off our 240 supply it would affect them, maybe there are more sophisticated adapters out there which really regulate the voltage accuratley and would help it work perfect.

 

.1g consistency does not sound good to me - beam scales should do better than that!

 

B

[Redfox]

Had 3 chargemasters, all went kaput, got money back. Lyman DPS1200 mk2 worked from day one, 2yrs still going strong and nearly £100 cheaper.

The time to stabilise/warm up is the load cell and measuring circuit, less than 30 mins = lower accuracy and that applies to expensive ( £1-4k) weighing devices too, without going in to unneccessary detail on how they work. I put mine on as soon as I start to set up to reload, so by the time I'm ready so is the powder measure.

In the larger cases like 243, 6mm br,270, etc it is accepted that less than 0.5gr will show no appreciable difference from round to round.

To consistently measure to .01 of a gr or better, would require laboratory grade scales, a temperature controlled environment and no draughts at all, so I wouldnt worry about that.

In the small cases like 17 rem etc.02 of a grain is all you need to worry about and any decent beam scale will keep very close to that certainly the RCBS and Hornady offerings will do it. I have both and have checked them several times agains laboratory grade scales and check weights.

If you are only loading 10-20 rounds at a time go for the beam scales and a trickler, if you do a few of different cals etc the electronic becomes more realistic, I have mine set up with all my favourite loads in memory and use it to do reasonable numbers of whatever I am going to use, but I no longer make lots of anything that isnt going to be used within the next 2-4 weeks as discussed in the thread on "pressure variation in older loads".

[craigyboy]

Thanks redfox, I was toying with the idea of either buying a good powder measure and relying on it to be able to dump straight into a case or relying on an electronic scale, I take a notion of trying to make loading a bit faster every couple of months and do a bit of research into it but I always go back to the same method, set the powder measure up light and trickle the last drop to weight on the scales it works well, just kinda slow, I could be loading maybe 25-50 a time for the tac20 but if its for .303 I would be loading 100, though for the .303 I just use the powder measure and dump staright into the case if it shoots a 3inch group at 100 I am happy weighing powder is never going to help that.

[Redfox]

Yes we all go round the same circles regularly. I eventually bought the lyman to spend the refund on th RCBS and because I had convinced myself it was needed, I like it but only use it now and then really.

I made up 20 of each of 22-250 loads one lot with everything from case weighing to neck turning etc one lot just sized necks cleaned then reloaded with exactly same components, couldnt see any measureable difference at 100 yds, at 300 yds there was a small difference in the groups but they would all have killed a fox! its only really when you start to push the envelope out to the limits that the extra work really starts to show benefits, at 100-150 yds just good reloading habits will give you the results, but beyond that the extra work comes into its own particularly with the smaller calibres.

Redfox

[Ronin]

Only just picked up on this thread so apologies for late entry

 

I was considering "investing" in a Harrell, but, as I have other projects in hand and need a very accurate set of electronic scales I have been looking at getting an Acculab Scales instead - for another project that may come to fruition later next year.

 

Surprise, surprise, on e-bay a few weeks ago was a Lyman 1200 dispenser and an Acculab scale - long story short, I bid and won it, primarily for the scale with the dispenser as a bonus.

 

Package recieved a week later and set up the kit in my loading room / office (no draughts nd pretty much constant temp) loading bench is very heavy duty metal frame office desk with 2 inch thick wooden top with my presses attached (it doesnt move much)

 

I thought i'd try the Lyman and set it going with the 30 min warm up. After that I calibrated it as per instruction and filled the drop tube with a SC powder.

 

I also had the RCBS beam balance scales and the Acculab set up and calibrated (these measure grains to 1/100 th - I think (two decimal places) the RCBS scale measures to 1/10th grain

 

Anyway, I set the Lyman to throw 46.5g for ten batches and weighed each on the Aculab and Beam balance to see how it was doing.

 

All the charges were slightly heavy when I checked on the balance, just over the mark, the same measurement on the electronic scale showed a varience of + /- .60 of a grain.

 

I then punched in 45.5g into the Lyman once that was thrown I transferred this to the Acculab and using a trikler brought it up to as close as I could get - one grain / kernel of powder even registered on the scale, its that precise!!!

 

 

Now these are tiny differences, but it does show the benefit of throw light and trickle up. I haven't tried the reverse method yet (throw using my old Dillon powder measure and trickle up on the RCBS balance to see how inacurate I was

 

Its going to be interesting to see if the investment in the Lyman and Acculab shows in the group sizes though......

 

Anyone know how to turn off the annoying bleep on the Lyman?

[Guest northernchris]

Why would you want more than 1/10th of a grain accuracy????

[Andrew]

Exactly Chris! Unless you are working with some very hairy powders, on the verge of disaster, why are you worried about such things? As I have posted before, the finest BR shooters in the U.S. drop volumetric charges. Weighing each charge, for the average shooter, is a monumental waste of time. Demanding less than .1 grain accuracy is equally silly. JMHO, of course...~Andrew

[Guest 308Panther]

I can see where knowing how much a kernal of Brand XYZ powder may come

in handy...

 

Winning free pints in the pubs.

After the shooting is done, of course!

 

308Panther

[Ronin]

I think my post has been misinterpreted - I was trying to discuss the accuracy / inaccuracy of the Lyman 1200 I had bought - its ok, but i'll still be trickling up to weight via beam scales or electronic.

 

I bought the Acculab for another purpose - not reloading and it isn't for weighing Coke either

[Guest 308Panther]

Peruvian Marching Powder!!!

 

Wouldnt know anymore than that.

Very very allergic.

 

308Panther

[baldie]

I,ve just got in from a benchrest comp at 600 yards, and i won it. I was using my 6mmbr with "thrown" charges, and its averaged 6" [moa] over 4 targets, all in a a very blustery wet wind i might add. This has got me wondering now whether that minute difference in a weighed charged is worth all the effort?

[Guest northernchris]

Andy if its not for weighing your charges or "coke",surely your useing it to count your cash

[craigyboy]

Baldie I know where youre coming from, I tested a couple of powders at 100 yards initially today 11 shots with a 3grain spread, each shot having a 0.3g step at 100 yards one sequence grouped 0.195" for 11 shots with a 3 grain spread, thats incrediable the other powder tested was all vertical but still under 0.7" for 11 shots which is ok, so I thought I would load the same sequence and test at 200 yards amazingly the powder that grouped 0.195" at 100 still kept under 1/2" at 200 yards with the 3 grain spread, the other powder was well over the inch but it was all vertical with a 3g spread you would expect this. So now I am wondering if 3grains doesnt even show at 200 yards where the hell will it show and if using a measure only gives 0.1g variance this isnt going to show for a long time with the right powder choice. Its obviously all down to the powder I have been testing like this for a while and had most powders with extreme vertical due to the charge weight variance, I knew I had hit on something when the groups were staying so tight even with all the different charge weights, maybe this is what its all about, finding a powder thats isnt fussy about charge weight. Some of the other powders I tested had great potential and when loaded all the same grouped brilliantly and you would have been more than happy with them and settled on them as a pet load but thankfully I kept testing as I wanted a powder that would meter well, tried H BL-C (2), tested the that which promotes growth and vigour out of it and its by far the best powder for me, plenty of other powders shoot good groups but they are slightly charge weight fussy it seems with BL-C (2) it doesnt matter what you stuff into the case it will hold a group.

[Ronin]

I think charge weight variences will only show at extreme distances - beyond 500.

 

The more equal you throw your charges the lower the ES - if youre in single or low teens you have cracked it.

 

Chris, the Acculab is for weighing bullet cores .....................

 

I get the house goblins to count my pennies

[ds1]

I`ve been using the older RCBS / PACT combo dispenser and electric scales for at least 6 years now, and balance beams with RCBS powder thrower for at least 10 years before that.

 

Some observations...........I will take all the accuracy I can get, If I have to choose I prefer consistency to accuracy.

 

Mechanical scales have one big advantage to me, they are not temperature sensitive. My RCBS electricones need a looong warm up to be consistant (yes they are accurate) but can show variation depending on time of year (30oC temps in summer, and heated room temp +/- 17oC in winter). I batch load normally for comps so maybe 50-200 rounds at a time. Whithin a batch I have consistency but I think less so batch to batch with the electric scales as shown by varing MV`s although ES is good.

 

Dispencers - the mechanical RCBS one is fine for dumping the bulk of the charge and trickling up but no where near accurate or consistant by itself with the extruded powders I use (different with ball powders).

 

I may yet go back to using the electric dispenser and beam scales.

 

If you are looking for the Holy Grail - its probably a Prometheus - but they aint cheap.

 

David

[Ronin]

Nicely put David

 

 

The Prometheus - well £800 is alot for a powder dispenser, no matter how accurate it is, i'd want Gwenevere as well for that money

 

I notice that Dave Tooley uses a Lyman 1200 for 1000 yard loading, so it cannot be all bad

[Andrew]

I think much depends on the powder. Example: If you are loading a reasonable charge of H-4831 in a 30-06 a variance of half a grain would make very little difference in velocity. It has been said by many competition shooters that if you need to weigh charges, you're using the wrong powder or charge weight. Likewise, if you are weighing powder and not using a single case for all your shooting, you are wasting time. Differences in volume and ductility of cases will negate your good work.

 

For years I weighed charges; trickling powder into the pan of my Dial -O- Grain scale. When time constraints put an end to the practice I found that my groups and scores did not suffer the way I thought they would. In fact, they didn't change at all. There are things that will work towards tightening your groups requiring both time and money. I don't think weighing charges is one of them -unless circumstances dictate it. I still trickle powder occasionally but these are for experimental loads. ~Andrew

[craigyboy]

I read an article on that Prometheus thing, they reckoned it was consitant to 0.01g, nuts.

[Redfox]

Ds1, the mechanical ones are temperature sensitive as the beam expands/contracts with temperature and it does make a difference, more on some than others ( thats why Lee use plastic, They say, more to do with price is reality).

Ronin, the acculab scales are more sensitive, so more likely to be out of calibration than the Lyman ones, believe it or not.

They are all corrected at 20degC and much variation from that causes inaccuracies. They are all sensitive to vibration and so laboratory grade scales should be mounted on a 3" thick piece of ground granite about 18"x24" for this size of scale and levelled to around two to 3 seconds of a degree.

These sort of things are why a metrology/calibration lab is so expensive to set up, thick concrete floors sealed windows , temperature and humidity have to be strictly controlled and people are not allowed to just walk in and out as that causes excursions of both temp and humidity. The normal period for stability before things are checked is 24 hrs and the items being checked are done so by a piece of kit which is minimum 3 times more accurate than itself and usually more so like 5 to 8 times more. The only way to check the scales is with the check weights , not another scale, re check after say another 15 mins and see if it has drifted and then again after a similar period, see if it is drifting as much as you think. which model of 1200 have you got? the series 1 was known to drift and they corrected it in the issue of series 2, there is now series 3 which they say is substantially quicker in weighing.

Redfox

[Ronin]

I think its a vs 1 or 2 whats the difference outwardly? The numbers on the control panel arn't worn (enter on top RHS) and it came with check weight, brush, powder scale and dust cover.

 

Looks like new but probably 3 years old at a guess.

 

The Acculab is set on a sturdy office quality desk (very heavy but not granite), when I move around the office the air disturbance does shoe the scale altering from zero to + / - .02 grain. Temp is constant 18 degrees.

 

As I said in previous post, I got it to weigh cores (individual and batches / numbers) of various weights for another project - i'll alos be using it to check jacket weights and completed bullets.

 

Since my last post, iv'e re-checked the test weight accuracy with the one supplied and with the test weight supplied with the lyman - its bang on - I have no issue with this.

 

I did a little check of the "match" quality bullets I have at the moment (Scenars and SMK, plus some Carterucio's)

 

Surprised to see variance of + /- up to 1.5 grain on the Scenar and SMK's, the Carterucios were + /- .5 grain in the main - shows the difference bettween match mass produced and custom hand made bullets.

 

I know these variances are in reality tiny (as are the earlier variations in powder weights) and of no real use for the average vermin / deer rifleman, but i'm coming from the target side with this and want to get everything the same if I am able to - that way, the only thing that can get it wrong is the nut behind the bolt

[ds1]

Redfox,

 

Your right in that the beam will expand / contract but the difference was not noticeable. I zeroed my Rcbs 5-0-5 scale at -8 and watched it over a day when placed at room temperature - kept its zero. What does cause about a 0.1 grain change however is where the beam sits in the agate bearings. With Rcbs scales the agate bearings are held in by metal end caps, it is possible for the beam to touch these end caps so there is friction.

 

Earlier in the year I tried with the electronic scales - when it was about 0C (I would not get them much colder as I did not want any condensation on them) in the consevarotry - bringing them inside to room temp and letting them warm up. From cold to a 12 hour warm up I got about a 2.0 grain shift. I also repeated this a week or two later when warmed up from the first time there was a 0.3 grain difference in scale readings after 12 hours.

 

Anyone know a powder thrower that works well with extruded powders that does not cost the earth?

 

David.

[Ronin]

David

 

I have a Dillon RB550 press with three interchangable plates set up with dies for various calibres - each of these has a Dillon Powder thrower (it the variable sized chamber type) that works ok with extruded but better with short cut and ball powder, theey dont cost the earth, but you'd need to set up a holder for it as it works on the press and activates via a case going into a bell mouth underneath it.

 

At the moment I use this type of thrower for all my loads - throwing light and trickle up (use a fired case for transfer of powder) The charges thrown are pretty accurate, as good as the RCBS, Lee throwers anyway.

 

Only prob is the chamber size, the most you can throw is circa 55 grains - not good if you have a larger calibre....

[John MH]

I don't have an electronic dispenser but do have both a Denver Instruments MXX-123 scale and an RCBS 10-10. The 10-10 have been tuned by Scott Parker in the USA, one of the best $20 I ever spent, don't know what he does but my confidence in the scale significantly improved to the point that I use the 10-10 95% of the time.

 

"Tuned Balance Beam Scales by Parker: Is your electronic scale giving you the blues? Does it drift with temperature or not hold accuracy tolerance? Scott Parker can modify balance beam scales to enhance sensitivity and more importantly, repeatability. Scott tells us: "You can literally count kernels with these scales--after tuning, the scales typically gain a half order of magnitude in sensitivity and a full order of magnitude in repeatability. Outside of a $250+ laboratory scale, a tuned beam scale is the most accurate and precise balance you can buy. I have tuned several 10-10s. They all have turned out very sensitive, consistent and hold linearity like a dream. The sensitivity after tuning is such that one kernel of powder registers a poise beam deflection. For repeatability, I remove the pan and replace it for the zero 10 times. The zero line and the poise beam balance line must coincide for each of those 10 tries. I then set the poises to read 250.0 grains. I remove and replace the pan 10 times with the calibration weight. For repeatability, the poise beam balance line must return to that same balance point ten times. I then adjust the poises back to zero and recheck the zero. A report is generated detailing the initial inspection of the balance, the corrective actions performed and any remaining concerns. I sell Ohaus type 10-10 and model 5-10 scales for $70.00 + shipping. I can also modify your existing 5-10 or 10-10 scales for $20.00 + shipping. Email me at VLD223@yahoo.com or call (661) 364-1199."

 

The MXX-123 is probably the best electroinic scale available on a reasonable budget with lots of info available on the 6BR Forum:

 

MXX-123 Thread

[Ronin]

John

 

interesting post on the MXX, have to say that my new scale doesn't drift like the ones described, it is in a stable room though.

 

 

I imagine that the modification Parker does is point form the beam spindle so it cannot bear (with friction) on either side of the guide.

 

This will make the beam far easier to move of its own accord.