fancy powder meausres???

[craigyboy]

Anyone using those fancy harrel or neil jones powder meausres, I have an RCBS uniflow but find it very inaccurate and I have done a bit of modifying to it that did help but its still not great and I dont trust it to throw a charge without weighing it. I want a measure that will throw a good consistant charge weight so I dont need to check it, I am getting to the stage where I want to spend more time shooting and less time watching the scales, I know no meausre is perfect but has anyone got any experience with either the harrel or neil jones? The neil jones i nearly twice the price of the harrel and I am wondering if its accurate enough to justify the difference, I think I am going to start using H BL-C (2) which is one of the extreme ball powders so it should work well in the measure.

 

Thanks

[Guest varmartin]

I think you will find the Harrel as accurate as it needs to be....but only for 100 yard shooting may be 150 max.

 

If you want to load the most consistent rounds you can then I am sure there is NO substitute for trickling up on scales.

 

Martin

[Alycidon]

I upgraded a couple of years ago from an RCBS to a Harrell. It is a nice bit of kit and the micrometer adjustements work well with the N133 (this is formed of very short sticks. almost round but not quite) I have put through it BUT, it still throws plus or minus .2 of a grain. So I still weigh each charge and trickle up.

 

The American benchrest boys shooting at 100 yards just drop the charge straight in as varmartin says but I like to know that if I miss it is down to me. I suppose thinking about it the average 200 yard rabbit would be fine.

 

It would be interesting to see the differences if someone wants to shoot a group at say 300 yards with trickled up loads and dropped loads.

 

A

[baldie]

I,ve long been a fan of the harrel Craig and throw straight to the case with all loads, but beware, they just dont work well with some powders, namely the double based vhits....they just wont throw them accuratly. However, for blc2 they would be excellent as its a very fine powder....just watch the static.

However, during load developement for the new gun, i did notice that hand weighed charges brought down the extreme spreads some what, so i will now be weighing all loads for past 300 yard comps, i,m actually thinking of an rcbs chargemaster, the electronic one that trickles up.

[Andrew]

I do not shoot competition anymore do I don't get too hung up in fancy measures, but the real sleeper in measures that is still available on E-bay and such, is the Belding and Mull. They are a bit awkward to use but will throw charges with a frightening exactitude. If you get the chance to pick one up, give it a try. They beat the pants off of RCBS, Lyman and even my old Seely Masker Comp measure.~Andrew

[stag1933]

I have 3 `Uniflo` measures on my loading bench set for 3 different rifles I currently load for.

I have had one of these for 40 years and it is still going strong.

The `Uniflo` is an excellent bit of kit and contrary to the opinion of a person here is accurate.

I currently use one to drop 40.5 gr. of VIT. N140 and often I do not even have to use the trickler which lives beside my scales.

The problem is that coarse grained powders do not measure easily and anyone wanting to drop loads without checking them should use a fine grain powder and not complain about the equipment they use.

 

Baldi.

I had an RCBS electronic hopper and scale. It had to be switched on to stabilise for quite a while before using it.

By the time I pratted about with it no benefit was gained over my old drop and check system.

It ceased to work and I sent it back. Allegedly it could not be repaired so I demanded a refund and also got to keep the electronic scales which I find useful for weighing cases etc.

I still use my old `Dial-a-Grain` scale which is the `MUTTS NUTS` for any charge checking etc.

[The RCBS electronic scale is on the extreme left sde of the picture.]

 

HWH.

[foxing2night]

Hi graig,

I use a harrel, But to be honest i like to trickle up On a ballance beam just to be sure??

 

The one thing that i would say is that they seem to differ if you are not constant in the way you throw the handle ????

 

They are a nice piece of kit!!! But exspensive??

 

Allthe best darrel

[Vermincinerator]

Stag,

i am still hunting for a dial-a-grain, the last one to come up on ebay went for $192 but the seller would not ship outside of the US.

Superb bit of kit.

 

Ian.

[craigyboy]

thanks lads, the answer is as I thought, just keep trickling up and live with it, I dont really mind doing it I know its the best way and its fine when I am loading about 30 cases but when i have 100 to do its a nightmare, just thought the harrel might be more accurate than the rest, seems like its not worth the money. My RCBS is currently throwing Alliant type powder with a 0.6g variation and the BL-C(2) with a 0.3g variation, its seems to just be very poorly finished, when I got it I stripped it down and took out any burrs etc, wiped it all inside with an anti static tumble dryer cloth (I also keep one in it when not in use) it was also full of rust inside when brand new and some of it has never came up, ah well I will maybe save my money and buy a set of RCBS 1010 scales instead.

[col48]

thanks lads, the answer is as I thought, just keep trickling up and live with it, I dont really mind doing it I know its the best way and its fine when I am loading about 30 cases but when i have 100 to do its a nightmare, just thought the harrel might be more accurate than the rest, seems like its not worth the money. My RCBS is currently throwing Alliant type powder with a 0.6g variation and the BL-C(2) with a 0.3g variation, its seems to just be very poorly finished, when I got it I stripped it down and took out any burrs etc, wiped it all inside with an anti static tumble dryer cloth (I also keep one in it when not in use) it was also full of rust inside when brand new and some of it has never came up, ah well I will maybe save my money and buy a set of RCBS 1010 scales instead.

 

i can remember reading somewhere that a lot of the USA bench rest boys had gone back to weighing all there chargers.

 

i have a set of Scott parker tuned 10 10 scales

a set of 505s

and the electronic rcbs scales that i use now, at the moment i would not go back to the balance beam scales.

i all so have the powder thrower you have, and when i used it,you had to do everything the exact same way,tap it and through the handle the same,all so if you split a kernel then you normally got a over charge.

 

ATB

Colin

[Vermincinerator]

craigy,

The harrel is definately worth it, once you have mastered a throwing technique it will consistantly throw charges plus or minus one tenth of a grain.

Out to 300 yards thrown charges are the norm in BR but after that trickled charges show more consistancy.

I have the Harrel Custom 90, the budget model of these measures, throws as accurately as the top end versions but does not have the features such as the double roller bearings and the polished body etc...

 

Ian.

[325WSM]

I did use an RCBS with micrometer but then bought a computerized electronic scale dispenser.

 

Despite that I still generally throw each charge by spoon. A small s/steel teaspoon held between thumb and first finger using the other hand to tap the thumb knuckle as a 'trickler' can provide exact charges to the scale pan just as quickly as the electronic dispenser and at least I can see each charge is the same on the old fashioned balance.

[johnnythefox]

Gordon bennet stagg the last time i saw that much loading gear I was in the birmingham proof house !!!!!!!!!!!

 

all the best

 

JTF

[Ratwhiskers]

Wot's really sickenin' about Stag's set up is that dirty great box of Fed' primers he's sat on just makes a young lad like me green

 

You should take it from him.... Niagra pills!!!! it's all in the trickle.....Ain't it Stag

 

ATB.

 

Ratty.

....

[MarinePMI]

I have to concur with Andrew's recommendation CraigyBoy. He showed me one a while back (and then gave me one to further entice me)...

 

Needless to say, when I run across one in good shape it finds it's way home with me...

They are scarily accruate, and due to the double chamber design, tend to throw most powders extremely well.

 

I use it with BLC-2 for one of my .223's and just this past weekend was shooting 1 1/4" groups at 300yds (and this was with a 1/4 value, 11-5 wind @ 5-10mph) out in the local desert. Didn't weigh a single charge...

[ds1]

Not very impressed with my Rcbs electronic scales and electronic dispenser at the moment. I will upgrade the Rcbs 505 scales to 10-10 scales next week and give a lot of thought to getting a "quick measure" powder thrower to replace the uniflow.

 

If the quick measure works as advertised it will do away with cutting extruded powder (more consistant?).

 

However if it does not work......then back to manual scales and Lee dippers.

 

David.

[Andrew]

Not very impressed with my Rcbs electronic scales and electronic dispenser at the moment. I will upgrade the Rcbs 505 scales to 10-10 scales next week and give a lot of thought to getting a "quick measure" powder thrower to replace the uniflow.

 

If the quick measure works as advertised it will do away with cutting extruded powder (more consistant?).

 

However if it does not work......then back to manual scales and Lee dippers.

 

David.

 

I use Lee Dippers quite often! I was loading .303 the other night and had come to the point where I decide how I should toss the powder charge. A look at Hodgdon's #26 manual showed that with H 4350, the minimum was 43 grains @ 2209 ft/sec. The maximum was 46 grains @ 2333 ft/sec. A full three grain variance was worth 122 ft/sec: I loaded using Lee dippers which I can scoop to +/- a half grain. Now, my old express rifle isn't a varmint gun for sure (though it is extremely accurate for big game rifle) but I doubt if weighing charges -or even tossing them from my superb B&M measures- would improve accuracy to any appreciable degree.~Andrew

[ds1]

Hi Andrew,

 

I'm looking at the Montana Vintage Arms version of the Belding and Mull.

 

How accurate can your B&M throw extruded powders? .............I`m just concerned as they are advertised a a BP mesure, so the only info I can find refers to metering BP powder.

 

Thanx,

 

David.

[Andrew]

David: I haven't looked at the Montana Vintage Arms B&M but I'm guessing that for BP they are having it made of brass or aluminum instead of iron. As for accuracy with extruded powders, the B&M is hands down more accurate than the Lyman, the Redding, the RCBS, the Saeco Comp, and the Hornady. I know because I own them all! Depending on the powder/extrusion, it can be very accurate. With the coarsest powders, like 4831, I toss a few loads onto the scale and never see the beam off much at all. A tenth either way, perhaps? I can do a test for you if you'd like. What powder are you thinking of and for what cartridge? Give me a load and I can give it a run for you. I have an OHAUS Dial-o-Grain for a scale so you'll know the results are accurate.

 

If you are looking at a B&M you might want to look on E-bay. I have paid as little as $40US for them there. I have four of them -well, three, actually as I gave one away- but they are my go-to measure. The others look very sophisticated -micrometer knobs and all- hanging about my reloading bench, but I should really get rid of them except for handgun use. My old SAECO is about the best of the lot and it is no longer in production. I have four presses, 7 powder measures and three bullet lubing machines on my bench. I could use the space! ~Andrew

[ds1]

Hi Andrew,

 

I will send you a PM.

 

I guess the accuracy results could of interest to others, so loads - if you would please throw a few samples of:

 

42.0 grains AA2015 (a short extruded powder) load is for 308 Win.

 

84.0 grains AA3100 (a long extruded powder) load is for 338 Lapua.

 

If you dont have the powders a 4350 type powder would be a reasonable compromise.

 

Many thanx.

 

David.

[Andrew]

David,

I have both in good quantities. I'll give it a test sometime this weekend and post the results. I wonder if my drop tune will hold 84 grains?? If not, I'll shoot for the maximum and report that, OK? ~Andrew

[ds1]

Andrew,

 

Thanx.......looking forward to the results.

 

David.

[Andrew]

David:

Ok I ran the tests wit 2015 and 3100. I didn't have a "magnum" length drop tube for the 84 grain charge so I had to contend with 45 grains. Admittedly, I did you a disservice of a sort because I did have a longer tube but it was already set up for another powder and measure. Please forgive...

 

After I practiced technique (about a dozen practice throws) I threw 20 charges of each and weighed them. The 3100 was +/- two tenths with 8 of the 20 landing close enough to the 45 grain mark to call good. Not surprisingly, these were the strokes on the lever that produced no cutting. When a cut kernel was felt, the measure would be off a bit.

 

The 2015 was much better. Out of 20 charges, 15 were -for all intents and purposes- exact. The others varied by a tenth or less. I remember that last time I loaded with 2015 was with my 25WCF and I checked every 5th load on the Ohaus, finding no variance that I was willing to tweak the dial to record.

 

As with all measures, a bit of practice works wonders -especially with the coarser powders. As I mentioned in my PM, I doubt if half a grain either way with an 84 grain charge in that beast of yours would show up anywhere except on a scale! Sorry I didn't have a magnum tube. I'll have to get my buddy in San Diego to make one just for yucks.

 

Hope this answers your questions.~Andrew

[ds1]

Hi Andrew,

 

Thank you very much for doing the test.

 

The results are very good and interesting. If I understand correctly there are two barriers to throwing accurate loads with log type AA3100 powder, firstly keeping a constant head of powder - preferably a two cavity system - which the B&M has and secondly preventing or reducing powder cutting - in part the B&M seems to reduce this as it is a solid piece of kit with a fair amount of leaverage. I did read an article where someone used a Redding measure and put a longer handle on it to cut through long grained powders easier so the thrower worked smoother.

 

Thoughts.......the only thrower which is advertised and tested as not cutting powder is the quick measure and the system on filling a drop tube is a bit similar to the B&M.

 

Plenty of food for thought........thank you once again.

 

 

David

[Andrew]

Glad I could help.~Andrew

 

PS: The Lee Measure was good for extruded powders as it had a "wiper" system that would slign the kernels of powder but as a whole, it was one of the worst items Lee ever produced. Fine powder would leak out the side of the drum!