londonhunter Posted February 21, 2012 Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 Ok guys Going to commit to a PMII for paper punching For discussion sake 1 k is really the limit to my comfort zone and ability I have decided to get the 3-12 What I cannot decide is which turret I have read a lot of discussions and old threads and I can see every camp has a reason behind their choice most likely due t their training and probably military background For a newby dial shooter who has been mucking around with 1cm = 1 click for some time, should I stick to that or change over to Mils or MOA I like to how to range with FFP and P4 fine reticle Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brown dog Posted February 21, 2012 Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 Ben, The 1cm to 1 click thing means you're already metric. The 1 click = 1cm at 100m thing is more properly put as 1 click = 0.1mRad (ie each click is 1/10 of a mil; so 10 clicks = 1 mil). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
londonhunter Posted February 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 Ben, The 1cm to 1 click thing means you're already metric. The 1 click = 1cm at 100m thing is more properly put as 1 click = 0.1mRad (ie each click is 1/10 of a mil; so 10 clicks = 1 mil). I think metric makes so much sense since everything is in 10's Thanks Just looking for endorsement from experts like you guys in this field Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brown dog Posted February 21, 2012 Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 All slaves to our own experience; but if you're planning on paper punching to 1000, I'd really try to persuade you to go for a bit more magnification. 4-16 would be optimal for a 'dual use' rifle. (and don't forget to go FFP not SFP if you want the ret to subtend correctly at all magnifications!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveT Posted February 21, 2012 Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 Ok guys Going to commit to a PMII for paper punching For discussion sake 1 k is really the limit to my comfort zone and ability I have decided to get the 3-12 What I cannot decide is which turret I have read a lot of discussions and old threads and I can see every camp has a reason behind their choice most likely due t their training and probably military background For a newby dial shooter who has been mucking around with 1cm = 1 click for some time, should I stick to that or change over to Mils or MOA I like to how to range with FFP and P4 fine reticle Thanks If you are used to metric turrets then stick with it..... its just a little coarser than typical MOA versions but in some ways more logical. I would personally prefer more magnification than you plan to buy ... especially (perversely) when using the scope at shorter distances than 1000 yards where you are really quartering the target rather than looking to see the bullet holes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatzi Posted February 21, 2012 Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 If i was starting out again, i could be very tempted to go mils. My current hunting guns/scopsd are german and 0.1 mRad clicks but both my PMII 's are MOA. My rangefinders are yards lol. I get on fine but would go ALL MILS if i had a clean sheet of paper. I recently had a Premier Optics Heritage in mils and really started to like them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
londonhunter Posted February 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 Thank you for the good tip I wonder why not more folks go for the 50x schmidt then ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveT Posted February 21, 2012 Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 Thank you for the good tip I wonder why not more folks go for the 50x schmidt then ? I have the 50x Schmidt and LOVE it! Recently needed a new scope and had to 'downgrade' to a x50 Sightron at half the price..... this might be the determining factor for a lot of people vs the cost of the Schmidt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejg223 Posted February 21, 2012 Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 I use whatever is on the scope have two rifle with MOA scopes, one with yds/ MOA chart, the other with m/1/4"clicks chart the other two rifles with cm clicks, yes one with yds the other with m chart edi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baldie Posted February 21, 2012 Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 I wouldn,t have a metric scope given. Simply cannot get on with it. All my scopes are MOA. 1cm at 100 yards is a lot coarser than 1 click [ 1/4 MOA ] roughly 6.5 millimeters. Have a look through a 50 power schmidt....then wind it back to around 35 power. The maximum power is all but useless unless conditions are absolutely perfect. The 5-25 is the best of the lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
londonhunter Posted February 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 Am I right to observe for paper punching up to 1k 5-25 PM Ii with FFP 1/4 MOA double turn Seems to tick all the boxes for most folks around here ..... Right ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brown dog Posted February 21, 2012 Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 Ao the general opinion For paper punching 5-25 PM Ii with FFP 1/4 MOA double turn Seems to tick all the boxes for most folks around here ..... Right ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brown dog Posted February 21, 2012 Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 1cm at 100 yards is a lot coarser than 1 click [ 1/4 MOA ] roughly 6.5 millimeters. 0.1mRad is 9.1mm at 100 yards; 1/4 MOA is about 6.6mm if it's accurate, about 6.9mm on a nightforce - a 2.5mm to 2.2mm difference -few people can place their MPI consistently enough for that to be meaningful The bottom line is that you can have a scope that clicks in segments of tangerine or gnat's knadger; but if the reticle isn't in the same segment of tangerine or gnat's knadger as the clicks it's a poor choice for anything remotely dynamic; you may as well get a duplex ret. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LONG RANGE CAPT Posted February 21, 2012 Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 The key thing here is reticule, if you have an MOA reticule with MOA adjustments, then this is fine, however most "run of the mill" (excuse the pun) scopes are Mil reticules with MOA adjustments - utterly pointless !!! I started off using MOA scopes with MIL reticules, what a confusing few years I spent, getting lost in turrets not being able to use my reticule to adjust for shots without a complicated mathematical formula of divided by 3.5 - or what ever. I then joined the army and things became very clear in terms of the MILs system and it's relation to the reticules in optical devices. My recommendation to anyone would be buy a scope / optics with MIL reticule and MIL adjustments - it just plain works, simple ! However if you shoot bench-rest rifle, the gun weights 12 tons and can only just be lugged the 20 feet or so from boot of car to bench, with no practical use. Then by all means having more minute adjustments of 1/8 MOA will prove more beneficial. Further to that turrets which you can't get lost with are the way forward, to this end - S&B are perfect. Kind Regards Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan534 Posted February 21, 2012 Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 I've owned both MOA Leupold MK4s, Nightforces, and a 1/8 MOA 12-50 Schmidt PM2 with a MIL P4 reticle. Being from a 'Chip and Pin' ipod generation I now use and much prefer my MIL RAD 5-25x56 in oppose to MOA or 'Shilling’s' as I just don’t understand imperial . Everything is so much easier to comprehend in the field with MILs, everything is out of 10 and as the CM is an SI unit of measure so it makes sense to me. Its what ever your used to I suppose, as others have said just make sure the reticle matches the turrets. Id never go back to MOA. As for the 50x Schmidt- I found I got 'lost' on the 12-50, I just could not get on with it especially at longer ranges (1000) where I was dialling into the 3rd or forth turn, hence I sold it. As Baldie said, I too found it too hazy at 35 to 40 mag but the field of view was good especially on the Mc Queens, I don’t miss the 'finer' 1/8 MOA adjustments, I don’t notice it on the target, if I want finer adjustments I will just hold over or under slightly, the wind and ballistic variables at longer ranges have a greater effect than a 2.2 mm difference I think. Right.. I'm off to play on my Xbox Dan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 I have bothe MOA and MIL scopes. Fortunate to be able to use both. I just swap over the measurement function on the RF (metric or yards, depending on scope.... Works fine for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baldie Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 What we have in this thread Matt, [apart from Andy,s last post ] is three guys, You, Rob and Dan, all singing milrads praises. Anyone spotted it yet ? You guys are all military, and have been trained in their use/metric. The vast majority of shooters in this country use MOA, have got used to MOA, and DONT use the reticule for rangefinding, so whats the point of confusing oneself? In which case either would do the job. The mistake people make is having scopes with different values. I,m 45, i was taught both metric and imperial at school. I use imperial measurements every day, and dislike metric intensly, despite it supposedly being easier to use. I simply dont find that myself. I would guess most shooters of a similar age think the same. The 25 year old kids who only know metric wouldn,t agree i have no doubt. I have found many times that a milrad scope cannot be zeroed exactly, due to the coarseness of adjustment, much the same as a 1moa per click imperial scope....and it bugs the hell out of me. A scope that cannot be accuratly zeroed is as much use as a chocolate poker. Wouldn,t bother most folk....it does me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
londonhunter Posted February 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 I can see every camp has a reason behind their choice most likely due t their training and probably military background Thank ou guys again for sharing your experience Appreciate it As I have stated at the start it's really down to how one have been brought up I have learned another important lesson from this thread Turret have got to match reticle Spoke to York guns and sportsman Nobody mentioned this atall Just wondering how many PMIi are out there with mismatched turrets ? that's exactly I am going to go for Good shooting guys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatzi Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 Thank ou guys again for sharing your experience Appreciate it As I have stated at the start it's really down to how one have been brought up I have learned another important lesson from this thread Turret have got to match reticle Spoke to York guns and sportsman Nobody mentioned this atall Just wondering how many PMIi are out there with mismatched turrets ? that's exactly I am going to go for Good shooting guys Both my 5-25 and 12.5-50 have MOA clicks and Mildot reticles, its all just persaonl choice but as I run 2FP in both anyway I have to allocate a zoom setting if I want to dial or measure clicks to match reticle subtensions. I have a bit of a problem with my right eye so Im more picky on the visual element of the reticle and how it stands out than most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skany Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 It dosent make any diff at all to me weather I'm using moa or .5cm clicks I don't range with my ret just rangefinder In yds as well with my .5cm ziess which belive it or not really winds some people up!:-) I just input the data from my range card / software job done same as for both systems! Cheers andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnery Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 like dave said i think most shooters use moa scopes i know my big smid is 1/8 ups and 1/4 windage i dont have any problems with that when i shoot comps at diggle you know the range your shooting anyway so no rangefinder or measurements with mildot scopes needed when long range plinking then i would use rangefinder make my adjustments and shoot i know when i have been on sniper courses they do like to show you how to work out distances with the scope but i must be honest i have never really gone down that road Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brown dog Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 I have learned another important lesson from this thread Turret have got to match reticle Yup, that's the main take away on this. If turret clicks don't match the ret, you may as well get a duplex. All the points about rangefinding are entirely missing the point: just about no one serious rangefinds with a mil-ret; you only do that if your laser won't read or you don't have a map. Mil-ranging has a +/- 10% error even for an 'expert' -it's shite and about the last thing someone should do; it's kept alive by US obsession in competition. It's about the last resort reversionary mode before trying to stand up and pace the distance to the target. What a mil ret enables a sporting shooter is to see a round land 0.8mRad left (with the ret) and then directly dial a 0.8mRad correction. Then hit. See the round impact 0.2mRad high; dial down 0.2mRad on the turret. Hit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
londonhunter Posted February 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 Yup, that's the main take away on this. If turret clicks don't match the ret, you may as well get a duplex. All the points about rangefinding are entirely missing the point: just about no one serious rangefinds with a mil-ret; you only do that if your laser won't read or you don't have a map. Mil-ranging has a +/- 10% error even for an 'expert' -it's shite and about the last thing someone should do; it's kept alive by US obsession in competition. It's about the last resort reversionary mode before trying to stand up and pace the distance to the target. What a mil ret enables a sporting shooter is to see a round land 0.8mRad left (with the ret) and then directly dial a 0.8mRad correction. Then hit. See the round impact 0.2mRad high; dial down 0.2mRad on the turret. Hit. Somebody should really train York guns and sportsman what to say to newby customers Such a serious bit of kit and they allowing customer to venture down the wrong road just because they fancy it like the previous poster I seriously would not mind paying for good training brown dog if you ever offer your expertise to civilians and amateurs lke me Just had a look at sportingservices.co.uk They only stock .1 milrad turrets scopes ! I sense they are the boys to talk to Anybody selling theirs 5-25 FFP 0.1 milrad turret double turn PmII ? P4 fine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagged 77 Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 I have both and am quite happy with either or, its hardly rocket science! The most important thing is that the turrets match the reticle and that you know exactly what each line on the reticle equates to (FFP makes this even easier as any mag can be used). Then you can use the reticle as a ruler. I have a bias towards MOA but an MRAD system with decent ballistic software is just as easy. Pick your system and get familiar with the reticle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxshooter Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 All I can add is that 12x mag isnt going to be enough. I shoot out to 1000/1200 yards with 14 mag on a 300Winmag and I really need more, I just cant justify the expense at the moment. 8-25 would be a much better option and is the route I'd like to take when funds allow I like the idea of the PMII with zero stop turrets but the price makes my eyes water Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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