on de grapevine!

[baldie]

A mate has just rung me, saying someones told him a tale about the military.

Apparently, and he,s checked it out, and unfortunatly found it to be true...

The military, and the dept that owns military ranges have decided that calibres of a certain foot poundage, are no longer suitable for use on their ranges, and basically it means anything over a mild .308 load. Milsurp .308 and up will be too hot

This is gonna lead to some folks losing rifles, and a sudden influx of prospective members to non military ranges like diggle, bisley, etc.Your buggered if you shoot at altcar, sennybridge etc.Apparently they are in a 4 week "consultation" period, but thats as much as i know, i will try and get a link. They are floating an idea that civvies must pass a competence test to use said calibres, as they deem only the military good enough shots .Yes i pissed my pants too.Anyone know owt?

[Alycidon]

No doubt another government ploy to further reduce the legal ownership of firearms. The military sniper trainees will be happily banging away with .50 Brownings spreading rounds about and we cant even have .338 or a decent .308.

 

Just remember come election day.

 

A

[Vermincinerator]

Dave,

Its all on the NRA website, thats if it is the same thing.

The MOD have decided to reduce the allowed muzzle energy on gallery ranges that they control, which basically means anything more then a standard 308 will not be allowed to be used on said range, at the moment this does not include field firing ranges.

As i stated on a previous post our glorius NRA have already consulted with the MOD and submitted what tey think to be appropriate energy levels which would suit most of its members, "THAT IS MOST OF ITS MEMBERS"

If it is not of the interest of all its members, nothing should have been tabled.

 

Ian.

[Guest vim]

.

[baldie]

no it bleedin wont....hee hee

[Ronin]

Ian

 

I take it that GAllery ranges does not mean the likes of Otterburn / Warcop where they have ETR's out to 1K?

[devilishdave]

A mate has just rung me, saying someones told him a tale about the military.

Apparently, and he,s checked it out, and unfortunatly found it to be true...

The military, and the dept that owns military ranges have decided that calibres of a certain foot poundage, are no longer suitable for use on their ranges, and basically it means anything over a mild .308 load. Milsurp .308 and up will be too hot

This is gonna lead to some folks losing rifles, and a sudden influx of prospective members to non military ranges like diggle, bisley, etc.Your buggered if you shoot at altcar, sennybridge etc.Apparently they are in a 4 week "consultation" period, but thats as much as i know, i will try and get a link. They are floating an idea that civvies must pass a competence test to use said calibres, as they deem only the military good enough shots .Yes i pissed my pants too.Anyone know owt?

 

Baldie,

 

I understand your greivance but as for your last comment, even the military have to take a rifle competancy test twice per year irespective of rank or time served. And if you want to stalk on military land you have to do the DSC1 shooting test at least twice per year

 

Dave

[Ratwhiskers]

Reading the reports of F$%k-ups made by some squaddies, maybe it's us who should be vetin' them not the other way round...

 

Having just joined a shooting club that uses MoD ranges l'll be watchin' this closely...

 

And as for some bunch of "Ruperts" saying we should take the Q1 test twice a year, they should pop along to Stag's place, we shoot that test 3 times a year as it is.....

[baldie]

i shoot with a couple of police snipers, and if folk realised how little time, or funding to train they get, to be able to keep their status, the general public would that which promotes growth and vigour bricks.Its only for the fact, the two guys train as part of their sport, in their own time, that they are "average" shots. I cant see your average squaddie being any different Dave to be honest.

A police officer told me recently, that the terrorism threat wasn,t too much of a worry, regarding them and rifles.He said the people we worry about greatly......are you guys, we are frightened to death of a civvy marskman, going ga-ga, because a man who can put ten round into 20" at 1000 yards, is untouchable by a police sniper.

I think this is the real reason the army/police/govt dont want large calibres in the hands of the public. 338 lap mag, is only just back at bisley, and that was only down to flood damage being repaired, it wouldn,t be available otherwise.

Thin end of the wedge fella,s.

[John MH]

i shoot with a couple of police snipers, and if folk realised how little time, or funding to train they get, to be able to keep their status, the general public would that which promotes growth and vigour bricks.Its only for the fact, the two guys train as part of their sport, in their own time, that they are "average" shots. I cant see your average squaddie being any different Dave to be honest.

A police officer told me recently, that the terrorism threat wasn,t too much of a worry, regarding them and rifles.He said the people we worry about greatly......are you guys, we are frightened to death of a civvy marskman, going ga-ga, because a man who can put ten round into 20" at 1000 yards, is untouchable by a police sniper.

I think this is the real reason the army/police/govt dont want large calibres in the hands of the public. 338 lap mag, is only just back at bisley, and that was only down to flood damage being repaired, it wouldn,t be available otherwise.

Thin end of the wedge fella,s.

 

I don't think that .338 Lapua is allowed at Bisley unless you ar a trained sniper using a military issue LRR, and it's use was not stopped because of the flood damage.

[baldie]

Its use was stopped because the fallout area was deemed not large enough, and backstops not thick enough etc. The flood damage, caused repair work to be done, which then exceeded the safety limits for this calibre, so it was back on. Anyone can use it, you dont have to be military, it just requires up to spec ranges.I was looking at one [an accuracy internation AW] only last sunday, on a small range near me, we are about to join, and the owner isnt military.

[devilishdave]

i shoot with a couple of police snipers, and if folk realised how little time, or funding to train they get, to be able to keep their status, the general public would that which promotes growth and vigour bricks.Its only for the fact, the two guys train as part of their sport, in their own time, that they are "average" shots. I cant see your average squaddie being any different Dave to be honest.

A police officer told me recently, that the terrorism threat wasn,t too much of a worry, regarding them and rifles.He said the people we worry about greatly......are you guys, we are frightened to death of a civvy marskman, going ga-ga, because a man who can put ten round into 20" at 1000 yards, is untouchable by a police sniper.

I think this is the real reason the army/police/govt dont want large calibres in the hands of the public. 338 lap mag, is only just back at bisley, and that was only down to flood damage being repaired, it wouldn,t be available otherwise.

Thin end of the wedge fella,s.

 

Baldie,

 

I am not saying all squadies are good shots just that they have to do safety tests twice a year before they are even alowed near a range. Some Army lads are crap shots no mater how much training they get and some are fantastic shots but most are some where in the middle. At the end of the day for practical rifle shooting you dont have to be that good to hit a man sized target at 300m. Now the snipers are somthing differant again and much more emphisis is now being paid to snipers with the new sniper school opening up in Brecon.

 

Dave

[Guest 308Panther]

.

A police officer told me recently, that the terrorism threat wasn,t too much of a worry, regarding them and rifles.He said the people we worry about greatly......are you guys, we are frightened to death of a civvy marskman, going ga-ga, because a man who can put ten round into 20" at 1000 yards, is untouchable by a police sniper.

 

They aint the only ones...So is the general population.

When I told the guys and brought in pics of the then, new Black Rifle,into

work.They all asked "What do you need a rifle like that for?....One person even said somethin to the effect of ..."Oh,I can see you havin a standoff with that rifle up on the Hoan Bridge with Milwaukee County Sherriffs Dept as the result of shooting some Fruits and Cans...."

My reply back was..."Guys,this is just the new rifle,The part I didnt tell you is I already own X amount of Rifles, X amount of Shotguns,X amount of Pistols." So whats the differance?

 

The guys makin the papers and the TV Newscasts were already nuts to begin with.

But just try and convince everyone else of that fact,because the only thing they see is the gun

as this is all the media focuses on.

 

308Panther

[John MH]

Its use was stopped because the fallout area was deemed not large enough, and backstops not thick enough etc. The flood damage, caused repair work to be done, which then exceeded the safety limits for this calibre, so it was back on. Anyone can use it, you dont have to be military, it just requires up to spec ranges.I was looking at one [an accuracy internation AW] only last sunday, on a small range near me, we are about to join, and the owner isnt military.

 

.338 Lap is not authorised for use at the NRA Ranges Bisley, checked with the range office this morning. The issue is not the thickness or capacity of the stop butt, its the RDA template. A round which goes over the stop butt has the potential to end up in Camberley well outside the RDA trace.

 

John MH

[baldie]

Ah, fair enough then john. As we understood it, the flood repairs had sorted it, but obviously not.

Dont think i would be wanting anything bigger than a .308 in the present climate.

I personally feel, the NRA etc, could do a damn sight more to protect its members, and the weapons they use, one of the clubs i belong to [not for much longer] breaks its neck to follow "apparent "hse "guidelines" but cannot produce the said guidelines when asked, and its ruined the club. Infact, its becomeing the club that says "no".

[John MH]

From the NRA Website

 

Potential Serious Problems for Civilian Shooters

 

At a meeting this morning (31/10/07) the National Rifle Association was informed that Defence Estates (DE), who are responsible for safety on all MoD ranges, have identified a risk that bullets fired with a Muzzle Energy (ME) in excess of 3800 Joules (J), have the potential to escape the Range Danger Area (RDA), particularly in the case of inaccurate firing.

DE refuse to accept this risk on behalf of civilian recreational shooting. The Defence Land Range Safety Committee (DLSRC) has therefore decided that no ammunition with an ME exceeding 3800 J may be fired on their ranges.

 

However a four week window has been negotiated on behalf of the Association, during which we have the opportunity to produce acceptable operating procedures. These procedures, covering Safe Person, Safe Training, Safe Practice and Safe Place, may allow ammunition with MEs exceeding 3800 J to be safely fired on these ranges, where no bullets will escape the RDA. In practice this means that all shots must be guaranteed to be captured by the Stop Butt.

 

This will demand a considerable amount of work on behalf of the Association, which will need to be entirely convincing to the DLRSC, to guarantee the 100% capture of all shots fired, from all firearms on all ranges. This will therefore require the fullest co-operation from all our members and clubs if this project is to stand any chance of succeeding.

 

Any input from clubs and individuals to help achieve this aim is welcomed. Please contact the NRA by e-mail as we will be fully engaged on this project and are unlikely to be able to answer all your telephone calls during this period. Your input will, however, be fully taken into account. We hope that by working together and using the considerable expertise within our wider membership we can achieve a successful outcome for us all. Updates will be posted regularly on the NRA website as matters develop.

 

Some Rough ME Calcs (obviously depends on muzzle velocity)

 

.338 Lap is around 6600J

30-06 is around 4000J

 

.30 WIN MAG (180gr) 3500J

303 (174gr) is 3100J

7.62mm (155gr) is 3600J

(175gr) is 3100J

5.56mm (80gr) is 1400J

 

ETA Wildcats

 

6.5 / 284 is around 4000J

Grendel is around 2500J

 

This does not apply to Field Firing Ranges. What the outcome will be is as yet unknown, the NRA are trying to come up with a sensible proposal/solution to the percived problem. Remember the is power figure is derived from rounds that have hit the bullet catcher and then escaped through ricochet. The biggest problem not being the distance down range, but the Flanks, which is where this new figure is derived from. E.g. The new .50 limits, which were derived from sideways escaping bullets. Our UK Ranges are old and don't have the space for modern high energy rounds. The fact that new technology is discovering where, and how far these rounds can go doesn't help the fight!

 

There is currently no formal assessment or national standard for civilian shooters using rifles above the 3800J, or even those below. The Military does have a formal assessment and a tri-service standard. Remember the phrase is Trained - Competent - Authorised when it comes to ranges and their management.

 

It is not suggested that we submit to a test system. However, there must be a way of authorising certain specialist interest clubs to conduct ranges above the 3800J limit if the range is cleared. After all NRA Qualified RCOs are already assessed to use NDA / Gallery / ETR / Moving Tgt / Black Powder ranges. It should be possible to authorise an RCO to conduct this type of shoot.

 

However, the vast number of Military gallery ranges may still be out for the more exotic higher energy calibres.

 

The most exotic I use is 6XC and a 115 grn bullet at 3000 fps is in the order of 3200J.

 

John MH

[baldie]

Good post John, and very informative, and cleared up a lot of things. Thank you.

[PaulB]

On the subject of how far bullets can travel, here is a calculator, obviously it does not take ricochets into account.

http://www.eskimo.com/~jbm/calculations/maxdist/maxdist.html

[John MH]

Latest from NRA:

 

Muzzle Energy and the MoD

Muzzle Energy and the MoD Along with clubs and individuals the NRA found itself on the back foot when we were quietly told, in a phone call from one of our Regional Members of the General Council, in the last week in October 2007 that the MoD had agreed to change the muzzle energy rates for use of their ranges by civilians from 7000 joules to 3800 joules. This news caused great consternation as effectively it meant that Target Rifle, Match Rifle, F Class and other forms of long range shooting were effectively banned on all MoD ranges and Bisley (which uses the MoD Range Danger Area of Pirbright).

Urgent discussions between the NRA and the MoD revealed that a final decision had not yet been reached, but that this was a proposal. However, to induce a bit more concern, Altcar decided to be ahead of the game and to introduce the new proposed provisions with immediate effect. This ensured that the knowledge of the proposed change was out in the general shooting community at the same time as the Association became aware, and panic ensued. At the same time as the NRA was trying to discover how serious the issue was, and what the MoD's intentions were, we were simultaneously under assault from shooters concerned at losing their sport.

 

In early discussions we learnt that the reason for this proposed change of policy was that when looking at the introduction of the .338 sniper rifle the Army had discovered that if fire was not precise, rounds could escape from ranges. The muzzle energy of a .338 is 6000+ joules. The MoD then carried out a general examination to find a muzzle energy figure that would guarantee rounds would not escape from ranges. On this basis they proposed to introduce the 3800 joules limit that meant, in terms of Target Rifle, 144 grain bullets were OK but competition ammunition of 155 grain was probably out.

 

Effectively if no accommodation could be reached most national and international long range competitions could not be shot in the UK on most ranges, including Bisley.

 

A series of urgent meetings took place between the Association and the MoD, to either get the limits changed upwards or find other ways of satisfying the Defence Estates concerns. We were informed that the general limit of 3800 joules would remain however, if we could propose a package of measures designed to ensure that all rounds fired would be contained by the range stop-butt, then the MoD would consider allowing civilians to shoot ammunition that exceeded the 3800 joules figure.

 

To give an example of the scope of this decision to reduce the muzzle energy limit one has only has to look at 'historics', the Brown Bess musket which, when fired using black powder, generates some of the highest muzzle energy figures, accepting that the ball at most travels a few hundred yards.

 

Even though this form of measurement (muzzle energy) is an inexact science the MoD insist that this is the way in which they will judge what firearms and ammunition can be fired on their ranges. Discussions around a different method of measuring or arguments about whether the current 155 grain bullet is 'over or under the bar' will not be worth the effort, because we have tried.

 

We have to realise that to the military there is no 'Defence Imperative' to allowing us to shoot on their ranges.

 

In our discussions however they are willing to consider letting civilians shoot in excess of 3800 joules if we can put in place procedures that will ensure that all shots will hit the stop-butt.

 

The NRA is determined to do everything it can to ensure all legitimate shooters can continue to take part in and enjoy their sport.

 

To this end the Association has negotiated a months grace to allow us to put together proposals designed to meet the needs of the MoD and allow all of you who shoot fullbore to continue shooting.

 

The military have indicted that we need to offer 'comfort' relating to the following, Safe Person, Safe Training, Safe Practice and Safe Place, in that we have the correct procedures in place to guarantee bullets will be captured by the stop-butt.

 

Safe Person/Training

The military want to be assured that everyone who shoots on a MoD range is competent and safe to fire the classes of firearm they are using.

 

Initially this will probably require each Club Secretary or Chairman to sign off each individual as being competent and safe, identifying the types of firearms they are able to fire. If agreed the NRA will supply by e-mail and the website an agreed form of certificate for clubs to use.

 

Going forward it has already been indicated that training of individuals will be an issue. As previously notified the Association intends to send to all its clubs the new Probationary Training pack, originally for them to choose to use or not. As with RCO courses, it will probably become a requirement for individuals, new to the sport, to have undertaken an approved course to shoot on MoD ranges. The NRA intends to supply appropriate course material for clubs to meet this need.

 

In the future the NRA also believes that to make things easier for clubs and individuals that we may need to introduce a 'Shooting Logbook' so that a person's qualifications, experience and classes of firearms they are able to fire are recorded in the same document for easy production.

 

Safe Practice

It has been suggested that in future on a MoD range it will be necessary for civilians to demonstrate that their fire is accurate from the outset of a range day. It is proposed that if there is no 'zero range' the shoot should start at 200 yards to ensure all rifles are zeroed before moving back. This will be inconvenient and will require that everyone turns up to shoot at an agreed time to get zeroed, with the whole procedure being monitored closely by RCOs. The details of what this means in practice are still to be agreed.

 

In addition a strict understanding of range orders and compliance will be essential for clubs to ensure their continued use of MoD ranges.

 

Safe Place

MoD Ranges, as we are all aware, are strictly inspected, maintained and controlled environments. The ranges at Bisley are, incidentally, leased from the Army. As such they are inspected and certificated by them regularly and are thus controlled by the same conditions as those ranges run by the MoD. Effectively, the muzzle energy restrictions will affect Bisley in the same way as any other MoD range. Fortunately we do have zeroing facilities that other ranges may not have.

 

The NRA accepts that what is proposed is possibly onerous and will be seen by many as a further erosion of shooting rights. The Association, however, will be attempting to minimise the effects of these changes and trying to keep everyone shooting.

 

Any input from clubs and individuals to help achieve this aim is welcomed. Please contact the NRA by e-mail as we will be fully engaged on this project and are unlikely to be able to answer all your telephone calls during this period. Your input will, however, be fully taken into account. We hope that by working together and using the considerable expertise within our wider membership we can achieve a successful outcome for us all. Updates will be posted regularly on the NRA website as matters develop.

[PaulB]

Not to sure what restrictions are in place at my 'local' range, I do know that some time last year ( or may be the year before?) rifles with a high muzzle velocity were not allowed now you may think that sounds about right! the list included .204 and .22-250 and .220 and to set it off the range is based in a disused railway tunnel, so no chance of a ricochet off to the flanks or rear ...............bonkers!

[ds1]

I have no dog in this fight, but I must say that it sucks.

 

Is it now more than a proposal - on what evidence / incidents was the proposal made?

 

The NRA achieved.......aparently nothing to get the ME higher than 3800 Joules.

 

No doubt the NRA is now bricking their collective pants if TR shooters will be affected.....compromise anyone and everyone else.

 

Just obeservations.

 

David.

[Guest 308Panther]

Like Baldie says....

Its the thin edge of the wedge.

they want guarantees on something that is unguarantee-able.

Too bad you cant find some laywer someplace to challenge

these @#$%#$&*'s

 

308Panther

[stag1933]

Just as a matter of interest the Winchester .308 Match round with the 168grain HP Boattail Match bullet generates 3634 Joules of energy at the muzzle, easily within the proposed parameters but a Win. .270 with the 150grain Partition Gold bullet is not at 3878 Joules.

Similarily out are all Win. 30/06 loads.

Had the limit been 4200 Joules instead quite a few similar sporting rounds would be legal.

 

HWH.