6.5x47 - load development

[LONG RANGE CAPT]

After experiencing a number of problems relating to my 6.5x47 blowing the back off the primers I decided enough was enough and it was time for a bit of Research & Development.

 

Having looked at a number of possible causes and taking on the advice of the members here, I popped down to Brock & Norris to see what could be done.

 

Mike is an expert in the field of all things that go bang and no doubt he would be able to find a solution.

So both I and Dan534 (who is also getting a 6.5x47 in the same Accuracy International AE platform)

packed are kit and headed off to Shropshire.

 

Once we arrived I explained the issues in more detail with Mike and after inspecting and stripping the gun a number of possibility's were ruled out.

 

It appeared the firing pin was fully intact, fully functional and not to long - so that was not hitting the primers to hard.

 

The internals of the rifle were as they should be so all OK there.

 

The most likely cause of the primers was overpressure, now although my original load - 38.5gr RL 15, 123gr Senar & CCI 450 small rifle magnum primer, works well in some rifles it isn't always going to be the case in every rifle. Each rifle is unique and individual and although the barrel might be cut with the same tools that make many others guns. Each one will have its own accuracy nodes and perform ever so slightly differently from the next.

 

Mike then measured the barrel length, checked the seating depth and other gun measurements. He then started the full process of case prep, carefully checking each individual case, resizing, measuring and double checking to ensure uniformity through out.

 

After batching up all the cases, Mike ran a number of known accuracy nodes with different powders through "Quick Load V 3.4" to get the starting points for the test loads.

 

First up was Vit N150, according to Quick load the place to start was 38.5gr, so following on from this the first 5 rounds were reloaded, measured and double checked. This process was then repeated for IMR @ 40.7gr, H4350 @ 40.7gr & RL15 @ 37.1gr.

 

According to "Quick Load" the powders should be producing the following:-

 

Vit N150 = 2831fps

 

IMR = 2868fps

 

H 4350 = 2862fps

 

RL15 = 2886fps

 

All the test rounds were seated at 2.102 to the ogive.

 

With all bullets being 123gr Lapua Senars.

 

Primers being CCI 450s.

 

 

After the heading down to the range (measured at 98m) with the test ammo, the gun was set up along with the chrono.

 

The Met data was recorded:-

 

Temp = 23.4 C

 

Station Pressure = 1012mb

 

Humidity 67.4 %

 

 

Once set up and we then fired off each group in order, the results are as follows:-

 

 

IMR was ruled out strait away.

Chrono data:-

 

1. 2917 fps

2. 2918 fps

3. 2931 fps

4. 2942 fps

5. 2941 fps

 

Average 2929 fps

 

Extreme spread 24 fps

 

 

 

H4350 seemed ok - although a adjustment of seating depth + or - could tighten up the group.

Chrono data:-

 

1. 2907 fps

2. 2901 fps

3. 2884 fps

4. 2895 fps

5. 2898 fps

 

Average 2897 fps

 

Extreme spread 23 fps

 

 

 

Vit N150 groups could be made tighter with + or - of powder. Adjusting seating depth would also improve.

Chrono data:-

 

1. 2986 fps

2. 3014 fps

3. 2996 fps

4. 2994 fps

5. 3004 fps

 

Average 2998 fps

 

Extreme spread 28 fps

 

 

 

RL 15 group also good but adjusting seating depth and powder would also assist.

Chrono data:-

 

1. 2915 fps

2. 2919 fps

3. 2911 fps

4. 2920 fps

5. 2933 fps

 

Average 2919 fps

 

Extreme spread 18 fps

 

 

 

 

 

The results were interesting, they showed a number of different things, primarily that my barrel was tight in comparison to not only "Quick Loads" virtual barrel. But also tight compared to a good friend of mine who has a very similar gun, all be it the AW version in 6.5X47.

 

The reason for the overpressure could be put down to my original load of 38.5gr RL15 being to hot (to much powder at to higher burn rate) for my gun - resulting in the blown primers. Also of note, the more powder in a case does not always mean more fps, but does on occasion mean overpressure.

 

One key difference on all the powders I tested was that none of them showed any pressure signs and the primers were not damaged.

 

 

There are, as one would expect differences between Quick loads predictions and the real world data collected:-

 

 

 

Quick Load - Vit N150 = 2831 fps

Real world - Vit N150 = 2998 fps

 

167 fps difference.

 

 

Quick load - IMR = 2868 fps

Real world - IMR = 2929 fps

 

61 fps difference.

 

 

Quick Load - H 4350 = 2862 fps

Real World - H 4350 = 2897 fps

 

35 fps difference.

 

 

Quick Load - RL15 = 2886 fps

Real World - RL15 = 2919 fps

 

33 fps difference.

 

 

Moving forward I intend to play around with the RL 15 powder, I will look to possibly increase 0.2gr increments and adjust seating depth to get the best I can from this impressive little round.

 

I hope this has been of interest.

 

Kind Regards

 

Rob

[6.5shooter]

Rob,

One suggestion which might be worth considering is that it depends on how many rifling grooves youre barrle has.

I run a 27" border 5r barrel on an rpa action and my load is similar to Darrel Evans load.

38.8gr reloader 15 begind a 123 scenar and im getting 2940 fps. I think his load may be 38.6 gr I think?

This equates to more powder to create the same pressure to get the same fps.

This also suggests to me that Darrels barrel must be 5r like mine as his results are very similar.

Youres could be an ordinary grooved barrel?

 

Garry

[Gandy]

Thats one of most interesting posts I've read, just a quick question is a diagonal spread within a group an indication that more of less powder is needed to tighten things up?

[janner]

Thats one of most interesting posts I've read, just a quick question is a diagonal spread within a group an indication that more of less powder is needed to tighten things up?

 

Hi Gandy. If you look at the targets you will see a little pencil written note on each, with an arrow showing the directional spread of the group.IE horizontal or vertical/diagonaly vertical. Horizontal we have found through testing relates to seating depth and vertical dispesion is related to velocity, ie powder charge.

I normaly advocate shooting your tests on a multi face target. Idealy with about ten aim points and shoot them in sequence .Idealy mark the targets with the load data before you shoot. Adhere to this format on every test that you undrtake. If you keep the tset tagets and data as we do at the workshop if will give you the oppurtunity to study trends,and evaluate how changes in load equate to changes in group shape and size.

the information that you need is right there in front of you most of the time. The rifle speaks in a language on the targets...... you just have to learn to decifer the language.

There is another lesson to be learned here, and I am sure that Rob will atest to this. Do not just drop some ones loads in your rifle and assume that it is safe. Darryl will tell you himself that the load that he was using was hot in his rifle. ALL loads should be dropped 10% and approached carefully if they have not been developed by yourself in your rifle. Always use a chronograph and do not take the data from ANY reloading source be it quickload, relading manuals, or internet forum as gospell and safe in your rifle. the variations in case capacity. bore dimensions ,and bore condition dictates that all loads be worked up to.

The ammunition industry gives a safety margin of 300 b.a.r below p.max as a safe working pressure on ammunition that it loads.

all the loads that were done for Robs AE were calculated as being at 300 b.a.r. below p.max for the powders used using the bullet and cases supplied . however you can see from the extrapolated data there were some considerable differences in the figures from the virtual data and figures that were acheived from the Chrono.

yours respectfully Mike Norris Brock and Norris Custom Rifles

[Ronin]

Surprised you didnt try Varget in the testing, when all else fails, in the 6.5x47's ive built, this powder has made a difference.

 

Note youve changed to CCI primers, think BR4 is the next logical progression to lower ES.

 

 

Also, please, try Varget.

[6.5shooter]

Surprised you didnt try Varget in the testing, when all else fails, in the 6.5x47's ive built, this powder has made a difference.

 

Note youve changed to CCI primers, think BR4 is the next logical progression to lower ES.

 

 

 

 

 

What is the general rule of thumb for primers for this calibre?

Some people say cci450 mag primers are the way forward and then others say that the br4 primers are the way forward.

I use rem 7 1/2 br primers and my es is around 20. It could be improved on but which direction? Mag primers or br4?

 

 

Regards

 

Garry

[Ronin]

As Mike correctly pointed out, every rifle is unique - not every rifle barrel performs the same as another.

 

However, in the rifles ive built using my tight neck reamered 47, 6 I know of are using 39g Varget sparked by CCI BR4.

 

All getting sub 1/2 MOA.

 

My own load is this in my BAT and i'm getting single digit ES.

 

Its stupidly accurate.

 

 

Please, do not use the load without starting 10% less

[foxing2night]

Rob, Glad that you have got your load sorted now!!!

 

I agree wholeheartedly with the comments made by Mr Norris,, His wealth of knowledge is Fantastic to say the least,,,

 

I think that the moderators of this site should on the hand loading page make it a sticky that all loads should start

10% lower and work up,, Very important for the new re loaders that are starting out on a fascinating venture!!!.

 

And as mike has said, shoot ten targets on one page and they will start to talk to you,, you just have to know what they are saying????. could have the little white van calling for me, making comments like that ,,,,

 

My own 6.5x47 when Mike first put the barrel on, would not shoot at all, i tried all the powder loads all the powders, this went on for about one month of solid shooting and reloading , the calibre was supposed to be one of the most accurate going and mine would not shoot for sh-t,, now going back to the ten targets, a call to mike with a description of the targets!!!, and the words primer issue came back at me over the phone???, bought some cci450 primers on mikes advice and bloody hell the rifle was now shooting silly little groups , and i have not looked back ever since,,,,

 

Nothing is set in stone and all i am saying is that it works in mine!!!!,

 

BUT PLEASE WORK UP YOUR LOADS FROM 10% lowers from any loads that you have been given or found on the net,,, Your rifle is an individual and should be treated as such.

 

I will come back later today with some more info on my findings with this marvelous little case,,,

 

I will be back

 

Darrel

[6.5shooter]

Rob, Glad that you have got your load sorted now!!!

 

I agree wholeheartedly with the comments made by Mr Norris,, His wealth of knowledge is Fantastic to say the least,,,

 

I think that the moderators of this site should on the hand loading page make it a sticky that all loads should start

10% lower and work up,, Very important for the new re loaders that are starting out on a fascinating venture!!!.

 

And as mike has said, shoot ten targets on one page and they will start to talk to you,, you just have to know what they are saying????. could have the little white van calling for me, making comments like that ,,,

 

My own 6.5x47 when Mike first put the barrel on, would not shoot at all, i tried all the powder loads all the powders, this went on for about one month of solid shooting and reloading , the calibre was supposed to be

one of the most accurate going and mine would not shoot for sh-t,, now going back to the ten targets, a call to mike with a description of the targets!!!, and the words primer issue came back at me over the phone???, bought some cci450 primers on mikes advice and bloody hell the rifle was now shooting silly little groups , and i have not looked back ever since,,,,

 

Nothing is set in stone and all i am saying is that it works in mine!!!!,

 

BUT PLEASE WORK UP YOUR LOADS FROM 10% lowers from any loads that you have been given or found on the net,,, Your rifle is an individual and should be treated as such.

 

I will come back later today with some more info on my findings with this marvelous little case,,,

 

I will be back

 

Darrel

 

 

 

 

What are the tell tail signs on the target that there is a primer issue?

 

Garry

[Gandy]

Hi Gandy. If you look at the targets you will see a little pencil written note on each, with an arrow showing the directional spread of the group.IE horizontal or vertical/diagonaly vertical. Horizontal we have found through testing relates to seating depth and vertical dispesion is related to velocity, ie powder charge.

I normaly advocate shooting your tests on a multi face target. Idealy with about ten aim points and shoot them in sequence .Idealy mark the targets with the load data before you shoot. Adhere to this format on every test that you undrtake. If you keep the tset tagets and data as we do at the workshop if will give you the oppurtunity to study trends,and evaluate how changes in load equate to changes in group shape and size.

the information that you need is right there in front of you most of the time. The rifle speaks in a language on the targets...... you just have to learn to decifer the language.

There is another lesson to be learned here, and I am sure that Rob will atest to this. Do not just drop some ones loads in your rifle and assume that it is safe. Darryl will tell you himself that the load that he was using was hot in his rifle. ALL loads should be dropped 10% and approached carefully if they have not been developed by yourself in your rifle. Always use a chronograph and do not take the data from ANY reloading source be it quickload, relading manuals, or internet forum as gospell and safe in your rifle. the variations in case capacity. bore dimensions ,and bore condition dictates that all loads be worked up to.

The ammunition industry gives a safety margin of 300 b.a.r below p.max as a safe working pressure on ammunition that it loads.

all the loads that were done for Robs AE were calculated as being at 300 b.a.r. below p.max for the powders used using the bullet and cases supplied . however you can see from the extrapolated data there were some considerable differences in the figures from the virtual data and figures that were acheived from the Chrono.

yours respectfully Mike Norris Brock and Norris Custom Rifles

 

Thank you very much for taking the time to give such a detailed reply much appreciated!

[terryh]

Nice to see your getting the rifle sorted.

 

Re. primers, when I first started with my 6.5x47 I went thru' the primer process, folks said the 450's were the way to go, but I tested about 4 types that were available locally, including the BR's. The 450's came out best re ES. But I will be trying some 'Russian' primers (PMC's) as the LR version of these have proved very good in comparison to other LR's tried in my 6x47 and recomended by Tubb for this type of case (XC's etc.)

 

The 'odd' rifling e.g. 5R or 5C (whatever) makes sense re pressure - less squeeze on a bullet plus the canted grooves, all adds up to less pressure/effort.

 

Personnal 'node' load in 6.5x47 37.5g R15, 123g Scanar, 450 primer down a 25" 1:8 5C Bertlien barrel gives 2880 fps. (but FYI R17 gives 2840 with the 139g).

 

Been lucky re. primers, never seen pierced or blown, but then again have not pushed the cartridge, working very well at the levels above.

 

Totally agree with Mr Norris re target use. Multi dot and shoot your test loads in a 'round Robin' method i.e 1st round of load 1 at target 1, then 1 round of load 2 at 2nd target etc. This way factors like barrel getting dirty/warm are taken out. You see some folks shoot a batch of one load on one target, then clean/faff around (the rifle completly changing in the ensuing palava/time) then shoot the second load into a new target. A good barrel is functionally accurate for many rounds (plus cleaning the snot out of a barrel is not benign) Sitting down and going thru the whole batch in one go, with reasonable time between shots, should give you the more consistent or comparable results.

 

Brgds Terry

[foxing2night]

What are the tell tail signs on the target that there is a primer issue?

 

Garry

Hi Matey,,,

I can only tell you the results from the targets from my rifle???

 

The primers that i used in the very first loads were br4 and rem 71/2..

 

looking at the groups they were all around half to three quarter groups and they all looked like a disc one in the middle and four around it,,,

 

all of the groups were the same with whatever loads or powder i used???,, funniest thing that i have ever seen???

 

Now with the 450 in i can shoot 95 grain ballistic tips and the 123g scenars with both the same poi at 100 yrds.

all powders tried have been very good with this combo,,,

 

would like to try some Berger 130???,,, but pigeon post and all that they never turned up???

 

All the best from Wales,, Darrel

[6.5shooter]

Hi Matey,,,

I can only tell you the results from the targets from my rifle???

 

The primers that i used in the very first loads were br4 and rem 71/2..

 

looking at the groups they were all around half to three quarter groups and they all looked like a disc one in the middle and four around it,,,

 

all of the groups were the same with whatever loads or powder i used???,, funniest thing that i have ever seen???

 

Now with the 450 in i can shoot 95 grain ballistic tips and the 123g scenars with both the same poi at 100 yrds.

all powders tried have been very good with this combo,,,

 

would like to try some Berger 130???,,, but pigeon post and all that they never turned up???

 

All the best from Wales,, Darrel

 

 

 

 

Hmm youve got me thinkin boys! Im going to try the cci 450 primers and see if it will lower my es.

The odd time I might get one or two shots horizontally strung from the group, maybe this is primer problems?

Haha Darrel yes that pigeon is going round the world for a shortcut but its on its way

[foxing2night]

Right i am back home now!!!!

 

My experience with the best cartridge on the planet

 

I am still of the opinion that varget is one of the best powders that i have used weather it be 308 or my ppc or my 6.5x47,, and it is sold in my local retailers ,,

Varget at 38.6, 123g scenar, cci450 primer, oal 2.132 to the orgive

four shots 2899 fps

2926 fps

2916 fps

2918 fps

average of 2914 fps,, es 27, sd 11

Not the best forgers but this load gave me a one hole group at 100 and it was just one hole!!!!

 

RELOADER 15 at 38.6, 123g scenar, cci 450 primer, oal of 2.132 to the orgive

four shots 2899 fps

2899 fps

2896 fps

2899 fps

 

average of 2898 fps,, es 3, sd 1

Now that is unbelievable and the group was .280,,, This has been my comp load for the last year and my foxing load with the 95 ballistic tips

Small group at the diggle on it,s first outing was 2.225 ukbra record,, but since broken by a chap with a 6.5 284 shooting a 2.218 group (dam)

best 300 yrd group egg shoot last year .4 something,,,

Very good load,,,, IN MY RIFLE

 

I was quite surprised that the varget load vas faster than the re15,, as you can see i use the same load and switch between the two!!!!.

 

H4350 at 41.8 123 scenar 450 primer was very consistent with very good groups at 100yrds

but the fps was well down compared to the varget and re15??? so i did not keep going with it??, as it is not easy to get hold of were i live,, but still a very good load,,,

 

By mistake a few months ago i was reloading an i set the scales to 37.5 of re15 ,, any way i finished them of and went for a shot, now this was a load that i could not get to shoot with the other primers???,, and to my surprise it shot a bug hole and then another and another HuMmmmmm, don't know what the fps was as i have not got one at the moment??, a bloody cow stood on it (don't ask)

 

I think that this will not give up much to the 38.6 load and would be kinder on the brass and the rifle,,, Time will tell????,,

 

I have got some re17??, should be good but i have been told that it will be hard on the throat area???

 

You might have guest by now that i love this calibre??? yes you would be right,,

 

I can shoot bench rest from 100 to 1000 yrds

tactical comps, mcqueens

Deer legal

fox shooting

Long range var minting,, IT will do every thing that i ask of it????

 

I know that there is a myriad of calibre,s out there and a lot of them are derivatives of the famous 308 case,, the list would go on and on????

 

But the 6.5x47 is up there with the best!!!!!

Just a quick drop chart

200 1moa

300 2.7moa

400 5.1moa

500 7.7

600 10.6

All fps results were compiled with an oehler chrono ,, on of the best that i have used,,,

I have used some of the cheaper ones but i found that the figuers that the said were way of track??, best to save up and get the best????

 

Hope this is of some help??, always nice to compare drop data

 

Darrel

[terryh]

Darrel,

 

As a comparison, basic drops for my rifle in 0.1 mil clicks for 100 yard zero:

 

300 10

400 18

500 26

600 35

1000 85

 

Brgds

 

Terry

[foxing2night]

Darrel,

 

As a comparison, basic drops for my rifle in 0.1 mil clicks for 100 yard zero:

 

300 10

400 18

500 26

600 35

1000 85

 

Brgds

 

Terry

Sorry Tery but i only work in moa,,,

My scope is a s&b 12.5 50 56. With 1/8 elevation and 1/4 windage

Only work in old money???

 

Darrel

[terryh]

Darrel

 

######' Luddite

 

just for you.....

 

300 3.4moa

400 6.2

500 8.9

600 12.0

1000 29.2

 

Brgds Terry

[between the eyes]

What an interesting thread this is, but another question from me now, is the rifle in question a 6.5 x 47 Lapua or just 6.5 x 47?

Thanks Andy

[janner]

What are the tell tail signs on the target that there is a primer issue?

 

Garry

 

Hi gary . The signs of primer issues from the testing that we have carried out is this .On a five shot group you will appear to have two seperate groups within the group. Ie. three shots together and two shots together but away from the others. The other sign is a cluster of four shots and a single shot out of the group normaly radiating around the priphery with no consistency.

we run a primer scan at this point. The only thing that is changed is the primer / the powder charge , bullet and seating depth are the same as is trim length . we use as many different primers as we can. Do not overlook the use of magnum primers in non magnum cases either. We have got many rifles to shoot using magnum primers when the client was just about ready to trade it away because and I quote ( if it doesn;t shoot with this load it is toataly crap and is not worth keeping) the expression on their faces when they are shown what makes their rifles realy group is a kodak moment

some times it is neccessary to change bullet style ie a flat base to a boat tail and vise versa.

yours respectfully mike Norris Brock and Norris Custom Rifles

[janner]

Surprised you didnt try Varget in the testing, when all else fails, in the 6.5x47's ive built, this powder has made a difference.

 

Note youve changed to CCI primers, think BR4 is the next logical progression to lower ES.

 

 

Also, please, try Varget.

 

Hi Andy the reason Varget was not tried at the time was I didn:t have any on the shelf.

[LONG RANGE CAPT]

What an interesting thread this is, but another question from me now, is the rifle in question a 6.5 x 47 Lapua or just 6.5 x 47?

Thanks Andy

 

Hi Andy,

 

My rifle is a 6.5x47 Lapua.

 

Kind Regards

 

Rob

[Ronin]

Hi Andy the reason Varget was not tried at the time was I didn:t have any on the shelf.

 

 

 

No problem Mike.

 

 

ive found that this powder to be the do all for this calibre and its very temp stable and reliable lot to lot.

 

Seems like Robs problem is cured anyway.

 

 

[between the eyes]

Thanks Rob, I'm just about to order one from Cooper Firearms, so might be in touch when it arrives, (in 6 long months) re load development.

[brown dog]

ive found that this powder to be the do all for this calibre and its very temp stable and reliable lot to lot.

 

Let me preface this question with an "for the last 7 years I've only shot 308"

 

...if Varget is a winner; how does N140 do? In 308 they match weight for weight; is there a read-across?

[baldie]

Reloader 15 varies so much from batch to batch, it simply isnt safe without checking every single new tub. Its also bloody dangerous on a hot day with a maximum load.

As already mentioned, Varget is far better.

Also one no one has mentioned, and all i ever used in mine is vhit 540. It gave 2950 with a 123 scenar from 39 grains of powder. Br4 primers.