LAPPING SCOPE RINGS

[millpool]

A QUESTION FOR ALL YOU GIRLS AND BOYS,

DO YOU LAPP IN YOUR SCOPE RINGS ? IF SO WHATS THE DRILL? I HAVE JUST BOUGHT A VERY NICE SCOPE(YES I KNOW NIGE, I COULD NOT HELP IT!!!1)

30MM TUBE ,IS IT WORTH DOING OR JUST ANOTHER GIMECK?? IF ITS WORTH DOING ANY IDEAS WHERE I CAN GET THE KIT THIS SIDE OF THE POND???

 

TA!!

 

CURIOUS OF CORNWALL!!

[Cornishman]

Millpool

 

I have a 30mm lapping bar and I've used it in the past with some fine valve lapping paste. These days, following a suggestion by DS, I use sellotape on the inside of the rings. There seems to be enough leeway in the size of the rings to accommodate a very thin cushioning layer and sellotape seems to have a bit of 'squash' to it. Maybe a lapping bar AND sellotape is the way to go. I dunno but if you'd like to borrow the lapping bar you're welcome.

[Guest 308Panther]

After using an alignment tool.

Lappin in the scope rings further ensures they are both

pointing down the same plane....

So, yes it works...and it isnt a gimmick.

It also increases the contact surface area of the ring

so you would have no scope movement...

If your serious about long range shooting its a must.

 

308Panther

[325WSM]

It is NOT good practice to use valve grinding paste fine or otherwise.

 

Buy the proper sort or you could end up achieving nothing but grief.

 

Buy from http://www.gunaccessories.com/Wheeler/LappingEquipment.asp

 

and yes they will send to the UK.

 

Their compound is the best I have used by far. I reckon its all down to the suspension medium they use which which for me provides the best and most long lasting lapping 'lubricant' I have ever used

 

Buy at least two grit sizes and preferably all 3.

 

Bringing in a lapping bar is expensive because of the weight for shipping so just buy a piece of ground stock from any good steel merchants in 1" and 30mm and drill and tap then fit a handle.

 

if you cant do that you wont be capable of lapping your rings so save your money and ask your local rifle smith to do it for you.

 

There are plenty of 'Help' sites on 'How to do lapping' so do read them before starting but first of all ensure your bases and rings are fitted 100% correctly. It is no use lapping then finding when you refit everything is all out of alignment again. Poorly fitted bases and rings cause more accuracy problems (and damaged scopes) than everything else put together - whatever the quality of the items used.

 

Sellotape is an example of something NOT to use - if it was needed the makers would have made the rings a couple of thou bigger to allow for it. If you wish to use a gripping medium to help counter recoil by all means use Cycle tyre patch glue instead as this will not fill spaces it shouldn't do (and so move things out of true) but just ooze out.

 

Whatever the job on 'guns' (as with most things) it is usually better to leave things it to those that 'know' - your local friendly rifle smith or if you really want to DIY try 'direct' learning from someone that does.

[ejg223]

Sometimes the alignment could be quite a bit out,

so that a nice bit of metall needs to be removed.

Normally the best way to lapp is by using a softer

material as the tool. If your rings are steel then use

something like a brass bar. The reason for that is, that

the abrasive particles of the lapping compound can bed

themselves into the softer metall and work the 'rings'

much more efficiently.

edi

[325WSM]

An excellent point ejg.

I made myself a set of different bars out of 'Ebonite' and although they do wear they do so very slowly and actually give a very good result. Ebonite is the hard black insulation material the GPO use in the old exchanges and what a lot of gunsmiths still use for stock extensions.

 

No longer avaiable as far as I know it is a hard, very well compacted dense black material, so like extremely close grained wood that will allow some ingress of the medium exactly as you suggest.

 

By the way I have quite a selection of rectangular pieces should anyone want some for a stock extension but I warn you now it stinks when machine sanded.It also checkers very well holding perfect points.

[ds1]

325 WSM,

 

As I told Cornishman about sellotape I am somewhat responsible, however in my defense I did get the idea from a cheap jack scope company that used to supply scopes with bits of paper for the same purpose many years ago - surprisingly the cheap jack scope company (Zeiss) is still around. Also in part the idea came from watching engineers put paper between metal plates to stop them sliding - guess folk have been doing stuff wrong for many years.

 

Now the jump to sellotape, true it has an adhesive but tends to squash out or flat under pressure, being carefull not to overlap the tape seems to have caused no problems and seems not to have caused any scope slipage on a 45-70 Marlin (not that that recoils anything like as visious as a 22BR though).

 

I am also at a loss to see how the concept differs from say Sako Optilock rings or Burris, using plastic inserts - but again Sako know sweet fanny adams as well I guess.

 

David.

[325WSM]

David

 

It never a good idea to add anything to a metal part that is made to exactly fit something else. Adding Sellotape reduces the size of the ring and compresses the tube of your scope – Simple Logic. If you really feel that additional resistance to recoil slippage would be beneficial try the Cycle Tyre/Tube repair Rubber Glue solution as it will exude all except the minutest layer and cause no additional pressure on the scope tube. Generally if the rings are well aligned it should not be needed.

 

Sako Optiloc rings are a setup I would neither use nor recommend anyone else to use. They are nowhere near as good as the Burris Signature (although they themselves are cosmetically less attractive).

 

Burris inserts allow a correction for misalignment both for windage and elevation whereas Sako do not. Neither do they generally hold zero for long as they often come loose from the bases if the retaining bolt is not ‘Loctited’ in place. Even that socket head screw is of inadequate quality being soft and of poor tensile strength and easy to damage.

 

As I said there are other better setups available for a lot less money. By the way both sets of inserts - Burris and Sako - are of a specific size for the tubes of the scopes to be mounted – not less 5 thou for sellotape insertion.

 

Sellotape as we all know quickly goes sticky and soft allowing the adhesive to move. Later it becomes hard and brittle and all in all is pretty useless. For an example of such deterioration take a look at the walls in your Doctors Surgery next time you visit as it will be littered with excellent examples at all stages of decay.

[PaulB]

M any reason why you would use rubber glue over loctite, surely loctite would set off better, squeeze out and fill voids just as well, or is there an issue with it setting off to hard?

[325WSM]

I suppose you could - but then you may well take the coating off the scope tube next time you removed it.

 

Loctite is usually used for metal to metal fit and different types for different purposes. As you say most types set hard but some stay 'sticky' so perhaps one of that type may suit.

 

Generally i do not use an additive between ring and scope tube BUT the rubber glue can have an other advantage when setting up ,a scope for the first time. You must of course not use a lubricant that would increase the chance of scope movement under recoil but the rubber solution also acts as a lubricant and allows the scope to be repositioned easily for quite a few minutes until it is set with correct eye relief and the x hairs correctly aligned. The rings may then be tightened squeezing out all but a minute amount of solution that will add to resistance to slippage.

 

Don't try to remove any excess until dry (1/2 hour min) and then do so by pulling a reasonable sized rubber band round the tube and it will peel off leaving no mark whatsoever.

[ejg223]

Scopes are generally a bit of a balls to mount,

steel mounts expand about three times less than

an aluminium scope with temperatur rise.

That's why I lapp and glue the scope, to try

and compensate a bit. Release agent on scope and

rings and use metall filled epoxy.

Loctite on screws as usual.

My rifle at the moment has optilocks, up to now it seems ok.

All manufacturing companies do mistakes, that's why you see

a merc broken down on the road side. Sako uses a polyamid ring

(nylon) that takes upto 2.5% water under damp conditions and

releases it under dry conditions and of coures changes size and

tension. Wrong material! but it works ok for my ranges up to now.

Whatever method one uses, do it well. Tape only if mounts are bigger than

scope, screws very tight and retighten a day or two later.

 

 

wsm might come back on that ebonite at some stage, just to extend

my shotty by 1.5". Never came across a nice piece of walnut.

 

rgds

edi

[325WSM]

wsm might come back on that ebonite at some stage, just to extend

my shotty by 1.5". Never came across a nice piece of walnut.

 

Considering there is sometimes a need to extend a stock and the unbelievable difficulty of first getting a wood match and then finding the constant movement of each bit is sufficiently different to keep moving the edges of the joint I find a chunk of 'black' on the end of a stock can look quite attractive - at least it is balanced by the black of the barrels.

 

Shout if I can assist.

[millpool]

thanks for all the good advice,food for thought!!!!!!!!

[onehole]

What worries me now Millpool is what you are actually gonna do now after all this advice??????I can just imagine you now with bits of sellotape rapped round and stuck to yer fingers with araldite or something worse and you becoming chemically bonded to your scope and rifle muttering something like i wish I never even let this idea enter my head in the first place????!!!.onehole.

[Cornishman]

Whoahhhhhh. I've been away from the site a couple of days and all this interesting stuff going on.

 

Forgive me 325WSM if persist on this sellotape thing. I have no emotional attachment to the idea but before discarding something that seems to have worked well I like to bottom out all of the pros and cons.

 

Fully understand the point about adding extra thickness in the rings but here's where theory and practice collide for me. DS is the pickiest person I know and he recommended it. I saw a scope that had been removed from one of his rifles and it is perfect - no ring marks at all. I tried the idea on one of my scopes and it went on a treat, the sellotape just seemed to squish in. So far so good. I know sellotape goes brittle over time but isn't it exposure to daylight that causes this?

 

And on a few other points:

 

1) I have two sets of Sako rings that seem fine although they're not good to set up. On the other hand my only set of Burris Signature rings allowed the scope to slip however much I tightened them up.

 

2) What's wrong with using fine grinding paste? I will cheerfully modify my practice here because I don't know much about lapping pastes but without the information I can't evaluate the opinion. Tell us more please.

 

3) I like the idea about rubber glue. I'll try that.

 

Cornishman.

[ejg223]

2) What's wrong with using fine grinding paste? I will cheerfully modify my practice here because I don't know much about lapping pastes but without the information I can't evaluate the opinion. Tell us more please.

 

Cornishman.

 

I presume the grit might still be on the course side and too little lubrication.

A rough surface on a valve allows quick run in and sealing. (I think)

For scope rings I wouldn't use over 30 micron and oil grease or vaseline as

lubricant. Either use premixed lapping paste or mix self. I mainly use

diamond or silicon carbide as the "grit", but several others are available.

I often thin down the premixed versions with oil or wd40.

As a lapping rod copper, brass, aluminium or cast iron work ok.

Start the oscilating lapping motion with little pressure to bed the

grit into the rod. Never let run dry.

For once off scope rings it's not important to have the best mixture.

Rather a bit of patience.

 

edi

[millpool]

thanks for all the good advice,food for thought!!!!!!!!

 

oh ye of little faith!!!!!!) i hope that you and mrs onehole will be at the range on thursday my lad! so i can show you the scope i just got,and will immediately offer me huge sums of wonga for it just so i wont bugger it up!!!

[Guest varmartin]

Millpool...

 

the wood/plastic end goes in your shoulder and the large bit of the scope goes farthest away from ye eye boy.

 

And the pointy bit goes in the big hole first

 

Dont lapp it...love it

 

Martin

[Guest 308Panther]

Millpool...

 

the wood/plastic end goes in your shoulder and the large bit of the scope goes farthest away from ye eye boy.

 

And the pointy bit goes in the big hole first

 

Dont lapp it...love it

 

Martin

 

I just wonder ???

How that bit of advice is gonna get twisted around

 

308Panther

[millpool]

oh ye of little faith!!!!!!) i hope that you and mrs onehole will be at the range on thursday my lad! so i can show you the scope i just got,and will immediately offer me huge sums of wonga for it just so i wont bugger it up!!!

 

 

martyn,iwhilst i am quite fond of my firearms i think"love them" may be a bit strong,have you started to "drool" over gun mags,would you rather watch the wild bunch than "a good family film?" if the awnser is yes .GET YOUR HEAD SORTED BEFORE ITS TO LATE!!!

[Guest varmartin]

[Guest varmartin]

martyn,iwhilst i am quite fond of my firearms i think"love them" may be a bit strong,have you started to "drool" over gun mags,would you rather watch the wild bunch than "a good family film?" if the awnser is yes .GET YOUR HEAD SORTED BEFORE ITS TO LATE!!!

 

ITS TO LATE

 

Had `The Wild Bunch` on DVD long ago.

 

There is no hope...Iv`e joined the dark side

 

Martin

[Guest 308Panther]

Hey Millpool,

 

Believe it or not,there isnt one issue of Playboy or Penthouse

in the "study".....But you will find the latest Brownell's,Guns

Guns & Blammo,North American Hunting,Cabelas,and DPMS Panther

Catalogs or magazines....Lovingly tucked under the bed is my

Black Rifle and Win 70,and on the nightstand right next to the

pack of Camels is a 1911 A-1 .45acp and in Angels panty drawer

is her Browning .380.....In the dvd rack you will find,

Outlaw Josey Wales,Unforgiven,The Good ,The Bad,The Ugly,Band of Brothers,

Saving Private Ryan,Full Metal Jacket,We were Soldiers,Shooter,Enemy at the Gates

My e mail addy is 308winshooter....The name patch on my uniforms even reads "Shooter"

There is a dead animal hangin in every room but the "Study" and the only reason for that is

Angel says Antlers dont look good as a robe/towel rack....and I agree.

 

 

You can never love your guns to much.

 

308Panther

[Guest varmartin]

Jeees...you have got it GOOD !

 

Martin

[millpool]

i,m now very concerned about panther and varmartyn ,this is really "top shelf stuff" that these boys are into,and i suspect that their supplier is none other than our very own varminter!!! who has i,ve been told been seen skulking about seedy bookshops when seen andSspoken to "i,m only looking at gun mags ,honest!! was his reply ,a lickley story !!!! any way have not got all day to do this ,i,m off to the BOOKSHOP BEFORE THEIR SOLD OUT!!!!! OF GUN MAGS OF COURSE