gunnery Posted December 31, 2010 Report Share Posted December 31, 2010 thinking of getting new scope for .260 for long range target shooting but looking for advice about three scopes which i think will do the job 1 schmidt & bender 12x50x56 pm11 2 nightforce nxs 12x42x56 3 ior 9x36x56 tactical turrets which one would be the one to have any comments chaps thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6.5shooter Posted December 31, 2010 Report Share Posted December 31, 2010 I have an IOR 9-36x56 and fo the money it is well worth it. The glass is on par with the schmit and the reticle is top class. It may not be as pretty as the more expensive schmit but you pays your money and makes your choice. Garry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ds1 Posted December 31, 2010 Report Share Posted December 31, 2010 It's worth thinking what features you want. Top choice is the S&B with great glass and a wide FOV (definate advantage for Mc. Queens and viewing condition changes) it is the only one that offers FFP or 2FP. It has more elevation than the NXS by far so your not getting near the extremes of the erector adjustment. Question is does it have the click adjustments you want ( 1/4 mooa, 1/8 moa or 0.25cm) and can you live without an illuminated reticule. I don't feel like buying one until they make it with 0.1 milrad clicks and an illuminated reticule - think I will have a long wait. Until then I can live with my NNXS 12-42x56 scopes - not great glass, but adequate for day time target shooting, crap FOV, good reliable adjustments and good reticule choices. If I fancied doing anything like Mc.Queens though I would have a S&B in a heartbeat. I would also have a look at March scopes. David. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onehole Posted December 31, 2010 Report Share Posted December 31, 2010 I think S@B if you are really interested in using the high mag.NF does not cope well at the 42 end whereas the S@B does and probably the IOR.I did have a high mag NF and found everything else ie rail/scope alignement etc really had to be bang on to get a useful amount of adjustment left re windage etc.All are good and I have not looked at IOR other than to notice that their reticules look a bit busy for my liking.What about a March?regds Onehole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMCI Posted December 31, 2010 Report Share Posted December 31, 2010 How to put some science in your scope choice. What the Marines call the Mark I Eyeball will when young resolve 1" at 100 yards. If you don't belive this put a non-contrasting button (We use a bottle cap, but I don't know if these are still available in the UK) out at that range and ask your military age offspring to find it. So that means that to remain status quo at 1000 yards you need a 10X scope. Something that John Unertl knew 60 years ago. Many of us are not young Marines so we may need a little help. I generally allow for 2x per 100 yards. This means a 20X variable is adequate for 1000 yards. However, here is the secret. Most of us if we are honest don't ever or seldom shoot at this range. Let's say most of your shooting is done at 450 yards or less. Most ethical hunters won't exceed this. So 9X is perfect. Most hot dog varmint guns will function to 700 yards. This means that a 14X is more than sufficient and in fact that few can find a use for a 40X or so power device. What would I do with the extra money? Go for resolution rather than power or objective size. Take a five pound note at put it with the aforementioned button. How much detail can you see on that note with your scope. Can you see the jewels in the queens head gear? If you are comparing scopes, don't look for "clarity or brightness", look for resolution. You can do this at the scope vendor. Look at something with detail on it at the far corner of the building when comparing scopes. Resolution and parralex control are particularly important with long range shooting. While I never mention it, if I see a guy with a 30-40x scope unless he is shooting very small targets or a .338 Lapua, I figure he is not a real rifleman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gandy Posted December 31, 2010 Report Share Posted December 31, 2010 Intresting post DMCI, me not being a rifleman and just trying to ask a stupid question surely the method you describe allows for the minimum amout of magnification that you would require to identify a target be calculated? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMCI Posted December 31, 2010 Report Share Posted December 31, 2010 Intresting post DMCI, me not being a rifleman and just trying to ask a stupid question surely the method you describe allows for the minimum amout of magnification that you would require to identify a target be calculated? Yes, if you have ever shot small targets at long range (like squirrels at 300) you typically use your binoculars to find the targets. Early varmit hunters found that high mag fixed power scopes(12x was typical in the day) made it difficult to identify the target. This is the reason the 3-9x variable was invented. 450 yards was quite a long distance to the gents. They found the target at low power, then while holding on the target cranked up the power. What I do is set my scope at the same power as my binocular range finder which is 8x, so that I see the same picture in both. I still need to Identify marker like bent fence post or clump of grass to help. Then I crank up the power only enough to clearly see target details. This also improves the field of view as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ds1 Posted December 31, 2010 Report Share Posted December 31, 2010 gunnery, do yourself a fovour, have a look on accurate shooter, plenty of articles on winning target rifles with optics. You will see Nightforce, S&B, March and others mentioned very often. If you want an optic for long range target shooting (like F Class) a 3-9x is pure shite. Different story if hunting, or action events, I have a USO 1.8-10x37 on my AR15 SBR, very good for action events from 0m to 300m, far from the best choice for precision prone shooting. From experience with a 12x S&B I could not ID zone targets at tactical competitions, 16x was bare minimum and 25x better. Look at it another way, with any the scopes you listed you can dial down to 12x, for static targets mine does not often leave full magnification (42x), it does for movers and night shooting. It is better to have the magnification and not need it than need it and not have it. Horses for courses - target shooting is different from tactical is different from bambi bashing, the equipment varies. David. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alycidon Posted December 31, 2010 Report Share Posted December 31, 2010 I would also have a look at March scopes. David. Dont !!, if you do so you will become much poorer. I had a look through a fixed power 40 X-50X or so BR scope, quite superb optics all be it in good light. A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMCI Posted January 1, 2011 Report Share Posted January 1, 2011 If you want an optic for long range target shooting (like F Class) a 3-9x is pure shite. Different story if hunting, or action events, I have a USO 1.8-10x37 on my AR15 SBR, very good for action events from 0m to 300m, far from the best choice for precision prone shooting. So unreasoning passion always trumps logic? I will admit that whilst Nightforce does an excellent job of marketing, they don't have the solution for every problem nor do I necessarily advocate any manufacturer's scope. The 3-9 and 2-7 were among the first variables minted and in fact are perfectly suited for hunting. Now days the 2.5-8 Loopy is often used for dangerous game hunting. However, the 14x variable is getting to be the gold standard for conventional work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AHPP Posted January 1, 2011 Report Share Posted January 1, 2011 So unreasoning passion always trumps logic? I will admit that whilst Nightforce does an excellent job of marketing, they don't have the solution for every problem nor do I necessarily advocate any manufacturer's scope. The 3-9 and 2-7 were among the first variables minted and in fact are perfectly suited for hunting. Now days the 2.5-8 Loopy is often used for dangerous game hunting. However, the 14x variable is getting to be the gold standard for conventional work. What's the rifle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMCI Posted January 1, 2011 Report Share Posted January 1, 2011 What's the rifle? AR-10T(Carbine) with aftermarket stock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AHPP Posted January 1, 2011 Report Share Posted January 1, 2011 Never seen an AR10 before. Logical thought if it's not a rather odd 15 though. I take it they're DI gas like the 15? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMCI Posted January 1, 2011 Report Share Posted January 1, 2011 Never seen an AR10 before. Logical thought if it's not a rather odd 15 though. I take it they're DI gas like the 15? Rifle is virtually the same, but larger. Shown here with 5 round magazine to allow it to be used for hunting. 20 round magazines are slightly modified M14 20rd. magazines. This one is a flat top with 18" barrel if memory serves. Longer barrel versions and .243 chamberings available from factory. Custom built .260s also available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terryh Posted January 1, 2011 Report Share Posted January 1, 2011 DMCI 'So unreasoning passion always trumps logic?' - bit of a statement Sir? If you feel entering F-Class or similar with a 20x is going to do it or a Tactical comp with a 3-9 then you are welcome to try. But I've always looked at the consitent winners, they do not 'fall' to the top of the pile and are beyond fads. Current F-class World champion - 50x March (yes they are very good), Probably the top US tactical shooter/gunsmith - Nightforce. While high magnifications are not always necessary (say for moving targets or wide FOV's) you can always turn them down. If it's not there you cannot use it when required. Horses for courses. Brgds & Happy New Year Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ds1 Posted January 1, 2011 Report Share Posted January 1, 2011 DMCI, According to your logic of 1x per 100 yards, then 100 yard benchrest shooters should be using EoTechs, Aimpoints and S&B 1-4x Shortdots for the elderly. Reality seems very different to your logic. The 1x per 100 yards is fine military doctorine - but we are not talking about that application. My point is the application dictates the equipment, most shooting disciples are well established with proven competitive equipment. The original poster listed 3 very good optics for the stated purpose, it serves no point to waffle on about my favourite optics when they serve a different purpose - eg EoTechs etc offer maybe 1moa accuracy, excellent for "action" events and piss poor for benchrest. I think current F Class uses a 1/2 moa bulls, imagine at 600 yards you need an optic to not only hold that 1/2 moa (and a fine reticule) but to be able to make wind hold-offs of 1/2 moa or less. It is not going to happpen with a 9x scope. Happy New Year, David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMCI Posted January 1, 2011 Report Share Posted January 1, 2011 DMCI, According to your logic of 1x per 100 yards, then 100 yard benchrest shooters should be using EoTechs, Aimpoints and S&B 1-4x Shortdots for the elderly. Reality seems very different to your logic. The 1x per 100 yards is fine military doctorine - but we are not talking about that application. My point is the application dictates the equipment, most shooting disciples are well established with proven competitive equipment. The original poster listed 3 very good optics for the stated purpose, it serves no point to waffle on about my favourite optics when they serve a different purpose - eg EoTechs etc offer maybe 1moa accuracy, excellent for "action" events and piss poor for benchrest. I think current F Class uses a 1/2 moa bulls, imagine at 600 yards you need an optic to not only hold that 1/2 moa (and a fine reticule) but to be able to make wind hold-offs of 1/2 moa or less. It is not going to happpen with a 9x scope. Happy New Year, David I would suggest you read my post a little more carefully. I am suggesting 2x per 100 yards. The meaning of my words is that a young eye will resolve 1 inch at 100 yards. The scope if it's properly made will resolve considerably better than this and with 2x per 100 yards will resolve vastly better than 1/2", precisely your requirement. Many years ago, the first 2-7 and 3-9 Leupolds were radical improvements for varmint hunting over the Unertl external adjustment scopes...MANY YEARS AGO. Today with improved optics resolution is vastly improved and power ranges considerably higher. Problem is scope manufacturer's in my view are putting too much effort is selling very high power, while not improving resolution. The best optics types like SWARO and S&B are doing the right thing in my opinion. 10 years ago I purchased a totally custom made scope with a 5:1 zoom and top power of 30X with a 35mm tube and 58mm objective. This scope also had the premium high resolution optics option. You can literally see the color of prairie dog's eyes at 300 yards with this thing. Since then I have mainly purchased 17X variables. Scope gives me 3x or more per 100 yards. 35mm tube also gives me more erector travel required for long range shooting. Rifle is 6.5-308 (Before .260 Remington) Special resolution optics were compared with CalTec (California Institute of Technology) Optical Masters before installation. Dr. Williams borrowed those lenses for that purpose. You can really see the difference in this scope. When this capability becomes useful is long range varminting, although I found that the .260 runs out of steam at about 700 yards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ds1 Posted January 1, 2011 Report Share Posted January 1, 2011 hmm......2x for 100 yards, oustanding - when are you going to let the benchrest community in on the secret? S&B have a 50x scope and Swarovski have a 30x scope....demand driven maybe? David. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMCI Posted January 1, 2011 Report Share Posted January 1, 2011 hmm......2x for 100 yards, oustanding - when are you going to let the benchrest community in on the secret? S&B have a 50x scope and Swarovski have a 30x scope....demand driven maybe? David. I collect edged weapons as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnery Posted January 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 1, 2011 thanks for that fellas most intresting is there a british distributer for march scopes to look at ? all the best for the new year to you all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ds1 Posted January 1, 2011 Report Share Posted January 1, 2011 March UK distributer is Northern Optics http://northern-optics.co.uk/MARCH_SCOPES.html David. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Streeker59 Posted January 1, 2011 Report Share Posted January 1, 2011 You can keep the knives but what's the 1911 clone ? I have a soft spot for them as i owned a couple before the ban.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluegreen Posted January 1, 2011 Report Share Posted January 1, 2011 That's a really tiny pistol. :o Waaaaaaaait a minute; maybe those are big knives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terryh Posted January 1, 2011 Report Share Posted January 1, 2011 ds1 Actually Dave, the UK importer for March is March Scopes UK, http://www.marchscopes.co.uk/ , Northern Optics gets their scopes from Gary. While talking about March, neat FFP scope coming from them soon, see: http://www.deon.co.jp/march/New-Scope.htm Matt's is of the opinion there just expensive Tascos (bloody Luddite ) but having looked thru' a couple they are very, very good. Gary's biggest problem is getting stock, not actually 'getting' it but keeping it on the shelf for folks to look at/thru', soon as they're handled they sell. One of the biggest markets for the high mag version is FT air rifle (for &ucks sake ) Brgds Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ds1 Posted January 1, 2011 Report Share Posted January 1, 2011 Hi Terry, I'm holding out for reports of the 10-80x56 and how it compares to the 10-60x model. Dont think I will get a chance to play with one before I need to buy one as I have a new stick that I hope is arriving in a couple of months thats I want to put something a bit special on. Personal thoughts are that if 80x is not usable - for spotting then I may be better off with the S&B 50x or another NXS as the March 60x only offers a 5 year guarantee. David. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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