RS62 query with 6.5mm Creedmoor

[Tomo999]

I've had pretty good success in my 6.5mm Ruger Precision Rifle (gen1) using H4350 and the Lapua Scenar 139g bullet. Having read with dismay that H4350 may no longer be available in the U.K in the near future I've decided to switch over to something else.

 

After trawling the internet and reading various threads I've decided to try RS62. There doesn't seem to be any data listed for the 6.5mm Creedmoor on the Reload Swiss website, and the little info I've found online seems to show people using between 42-44grs for the 139gr Lapua bullet.

 

Can anyone give me a safe starting/max charge weight for RS62 using the 139gr Lapua Scenar bullet?

 

I'm also using a Lapua (small primer) case, fed 205m primer and the Ruger has a standard 24" barrel.

 

I target shoot out to 1000yds so I'm looking for a load that can retain around 1350fps at this distance and hopefully match the single digit SD and ES scores that I (mostly) managed using H4350. I'm not really interested in hotrodding the thing to 3000fps- all I require is a bullet that's still supersonic @ 1000yds.

 

I'll work up a load as standard but just need a starting weight to get going.

 

Any help greatly appreciated.

[DaveT]

Pretty sure that Laurie Holland posted on here re RS62 and the various 6.5s.......a quick search should find a load recommendation that you can believe in.

[Tomo999]

I think I've seen most (if not all) of Laurie's excellent posts regarding the various powder options for 6.5mm Creedmoor. Whilst they are very informative and indepth I don't think any give min/ max rates for powder charges using RS62 and 139gr Lapua Scenar.

 

I'll check again....

[meles meles]

Begging your pardon, oomans, can we add a little about RS powders ?

 

We've just done some comparative test in 6.5x55 Swedish with RS 60 and Ramshot Magnum powders. We used the same rifle (Carl Gustav CG63), cases (Lapua), primers (CCI) and bullets (Sellier and Bellot type 2905 140 gn FMJ).

 

We did a full OCW test using both powders.

 

The best result from the Ramshot Magnum used 46.9 grains and gave a good, tight group with an average velocity of 2498 feet per second and a standard deviation of 9.2 fps

 

The best result from the RS 60 powder used 43.2 grains and gave a slightly smaller group with an average velocity of 2708 feet per second and a standard deviation of 3.1 fps

 

The Reload Swiss thus used less powder, gave a higher velocity, smaller spread and a (very slightly) smaller group.

 

The 6.5 Creedmore isn't that much different from 6.5x55 Swedish, so we'd sat go ahead, try the Reload Swiss, but the RS 60 rather than 62.

[Tomo999]

Thank-you badger for the input, I chose RS62 over RS60 as the RS60 stuff is a high-energy powder that isn't too kind to barrels.

 

Hopefully the single based RS62 powder will still give me decent accuracy while not burning out the barrel as quickly.

[meles meles]

Propellant chemistry has moved on a little these days and a simple distinction between single (good) and double (bad) based propellants isn't really valid. Modern European double based propellants are generally a single based propellant into which a more energetic component has been infused in a very controlled manner, and with the addition of a number of other moderating agents to control burn temperatures. Nitrochemie, the parent company behind Reload Swiss powders is actually rather good at this. By all means stick with the RS62 if you prefer, but don't be scared of some of the more modern high energy powders...

[BlueBoy69]

Your best bet is to work up from the Reload Swiss (RS) data published on the 6.5x47 Lapua, or from the 6.5x55 Swedish, but be aware they are vary considerably in case capacity and maximum chamber pressure (see below).

 

6.5x47 Lapua = 48.00 grains capacity of H₂O, maximum chamber pressure 4,350 bar
6.5 Creedmoor Hornady = 53.505 gr H₂O, pressure 4,350 bar
6.5x55 Swedish = 57.00 gr H₂O, pressure 3,800 bar

 

The nearest RS data to the 139 gr Scenar with the 6.5x47 Lapua round is with the 140 grain A-Max, the charge range for RS62 32.9 to 38.7 grains. But remember though the pressure for both cases are the same, the case capacity of the 6.5x47 Lapua is about 10% less than the 6.5 Creedmoor.

 

The RS data for the 6.5x55 Swedish with the 139 grain Scenar has a charge range with RS62 of 40.7 to 45.8 grains. As above, so though the maximum pressure for 6.5 Creedmoor is 14.5% higher than the Swedish, its case capacity is about 6% less.

 

Plugging these two charge levels into QuickLOAD, but with the 6.5 Creedmoor cartridge loaded with a 139 grain Scenar loaded to a COAL of 2.810" (this seeming often used), gives these results: low pressures of 1,659-2,562 bar with the 6.5x47 Lapua charge data; and low to maximum pressures of 2,976-4,316 bar with the 6.5x55 Swedish charge data.

 

Although QuickLOAD is purely an approximation, it does serve as a good guide. Going by the above and your original comments of people using charge weights of between 42-44 grains of RS62 with the 139 grain Scenar would seem to be about right.

So your best idea would be to start at about 39.0 grains of RS62 and work up, attempting to find the charge weight with the best accuracy, whilst all the time looking for signs or high pressure as you do so.

[Tomo999]

Thank-you BB69, that gives me a base to start from.

[Laurie]

Propellant chemistry has moved on a little these days and a simple distinction between single (good) and double (bad) based propellants isn't really valid. Modern European double based propellants are generally a single based propellant into which a more energetic component has been infused in a very controlled manner, and with the addition of a number of other moderating agents to control burn temperatures. Nitrochemie, the parent company behind Reload Swiss powders is actually rather good at this. By all means stick with the RS62 if you prefer, but don't be scared of some of the more modern high energy powders...

 

That may be ..... BUT! Plain good old actual real world experience has shown that where RS60 / Alliant Re17 potential performance is fully tapped, then barrel life isn't just reduced a bit, but by rather a lot. It is not simply the addition of nitroglycerin, but that in conjunction with the EI deterrents infusion modifiers process that stretches the period of maximum heat / pressure substantially within allowable chamber pressures.

 

As a result, the planet's shooters / handloaders most addicted to maximising performance, our US friends, have gone from being Re17's greatest fans to shunning it for most range use.

 

So people here, who pay rather more for a rebarrel with a quality make than Americans in real money terms, simply need to be aware of this and to consider their options. RS60 may be the best choice for their situation and needs, but if they use it in ignorance, it may end up an expensive choice. It is also not simply an issue of propellant A v propellant B, rather how high and fast the RS60 handloading user decides to load cartridges up to as the propellant has so much extra performance on offer over almost any other competitor.

 

There isn't anything particularly new in this dilemma. Back in year one or two of FTR's introduction, three of us based at Diggle, fitted new Bartlein barrels to our 308s, the blanks bought and supplied together in a single order. Viht N540 high-energy powder was used with 155gn Scenars in what were 'warm' to 'hot' loads in those days when 3,000 fps with a 155 was a high MV from a 30-inch barrel. None of those three barrels saw the far side of 1,500 rounds, one knackered in only 1,100 rounds with loads that gave MVs around 3,075 fps. Things have moved on a lot from then, but the old adage about 'a free lunch' still applies.

[Tomo999]

 

Posted 18 September 2017 - 07:12 AM

I have recently swapped from using H4350 to RS62 in my 6.5mm Creedmoor RPR using exactly the same bullet - 139gr Lapua Scenar and Lapua small primer brass; I shot my first loads using RS62 on Saturday. As there's not that much load data around for RS62 and 6.5MM Creedmoor I started low at 41.8grs and worked up.

 

Initial impressions are mixed, however I'll need to test some more before I can make a more informed opinion.

 

It doesn't metre out as well as other powders I've used such as RS50 or H4350 - the size of grain is very inconsistant.

 

I was getting around 2750fps with a moderate load of H4350, however to acheive similar speeds with RS62 I was having to compress the powder a little (I could hear the bullet crunching into the powder as I seated it.)

 

My best 5 shot group @ 100M was this one (ignore bullet hole far left - that was me mucking around with a suppressor later on!)

 

43.40gr RS62

2740 fps

2726 fps

2716 fps

2721 fps

2733 fps

SD: 9 ES: 24

Not fantastic figures but not awful either.

 

The same load shot this at 300 yds in the afternoon; temps had climbed by 20F and so did the recorded fps scores!

2766 fps

2761 fps

2747 fps

2772 fps

2766 fps

SD: 9 ES: 26

The wind was annoyingly changeable in the afternoon so group size was partly down to my poor wind calls.

 

My best SD and ES scores were recorded using slightly heavier loads of 43.60gr RS62. I got SD: 7 & ES: 20 @ 100M in the morning then SD: 4 & ES: 11 in the afternoon @ 300yds. Results on the target were not as good as the ones above.

 

I've got a morning booked @ 200yds on Wednesday so I intend to load up some more rounds using RS62 and go again. I'll look at 43.20gr and above to see if I can repeat (or better!) Saturdays results. The highest charge I tested was 43.80gr; there were no pressure signs and so I'll see if I can work up a few more in .2 steps.

 

I'll definitely stick with the 139 Lapua Scenar bullet but I'm so far undecided about RS62. More testing is required.

 

As ever - these figures / results were from MY rifle; each one is different and so you MUST work up from a safe load weight etc etc.

 

As a follow-on from my post above made in another thread - I took another 100 rounds to Bisley to test yesterday @ 200 yds and then @ 1000yds.

 

Conditions for shooting @ 200 yds were almost perfect - no wind to speak of with a cloudy overcast sky. I tested 5 different charges of RS62 from 43.20gr to 44.00gr and basically confirmed the data from my previous outting that indicated 43.4gr worked best in my rifle. I shot three strings of 5 rounds at each charge weight and recorded best figures of

43.4gr RS62

string 1: SD:5 ES:13

string 2: SD:6 ES: 16

string 3: SD: 8 ES: 21

Average FPS was 2722fps

 

Actual results on paper @ 200 yds were okay - not spectacular but okay.

string 1

 

String 2

 

string 3

 

Apart from this partucular load the other charge weights performed poorly. I was dissapointed at the lack of consistancy as well as the results on paper (44grs shot 2MOA or worse in all three strings.) Results were so poor in fact that I stopped recording data - it just wasn't worth it.

 

For a bit of fun, in the afternoon I took my remaining RS62 rounds and did a comparision test with my usual H4350 reloads @ 1000yds on Stickledown range.

 

The conditions for this test were more challenging - a wind blowing 6 to 15mph in from the left that changed directions during the day.

 

The best 2 targets using H4350 were these two

 

 

 

The RS62 results weren't as good - obviously these are test loads so I wasn't expecting them to match the H4350 results.

 

Best RS62 target.

 

Conclusion

I'm not ready to give up on RS62 yet; I've got enough powder for another 100 rounds so I plan on testing more with 43.4gr and experiment with different seating depths.

 

If I can't close up the groups then I'll move onto N150.

[shotgunner]

Your best bet is to work up from the Reload Swiss (RS) data published on the 6.5x47 Lapua, or from the 6.5x55 Swedish, but be aware they are vary considerably in case capacity and maximum chamber pressure (see below).

 

6.5x47 Lapua = 48.00 grains capacity of H₂O, maximum chamber pressure 4,350 bar

6.5 Creedmoor Hornady = 53.505 gr H₂O, pressure 4,350 bar

6.5x55 Swedish = 57.00 gr H₂O, pressure 3,800 bar

 

The nearest RS data to the 139 gr Scenar with the 6.5x47 Lapua round is with the 140 grain A-Max, the charge range for RS62 32.9 to 38.7 grains. But remember though the pressure for both cases are the same, the case capacity of the 6.5x47 Lapua is about 10% less than the 6.5 Creedmoor.

 

The RS data for the 6.5x55 Swedish with the 139 grain Scenar has a charge range with RS62 of 40.7 to 45.8 grains. As above, so though the maximum pressure for 6.5 Creedmoor is 14.5% higher than the Swedish, its case capacity is about 6% less.

 

Plugging these two charge levels into QuickLOAD, but with the 6.5 Creedmoor cartridge loaded with a 139 grain Scenar loaded to a COAL of 2.810" (this seeming often used), gives these results: low pressures of 1,659-2,562 bar with the 6.5x47 Lapua charge data; and low to maximum pressures of 2,976-4,316 bar with the 6.5x55 Swedish charge data.

 

Although QuickLOAD is purely an approximation, it does serve as a good guide. Going by the above and your original comments of people using charge weights of between 42-44 grains of RS62 with the 139 grain Scenar would seem to be about right.

So your best idea would be to start at about 39.0 grains of RS62 and work up, attempting to find the charge weight with the best accuracy, whilst all the time looking for signs or high pressure as you do so.

 

Hi BB69 any chance you could run a load data for me running a 6.5x47L 20in barrel with rs 62 and nosler BT 120 gr with cci,mag 450 primers

[shotgunner]

Your best bet is to work up from the Reload Swiss (RS) data published on the 6.5x47 Lapua, or from the 6.5x55 Swedish, but be aware they are vary considerably in case capacity and maximum chamber pressure (see below).

 

6.5x47 Lapua = 48.00 grains capacity of H₂O, maximum chamber pressure 4,350 bar

6.5 Creedmoor Hornady = 53.505 gr H₂O, pressure 4,350 bar

6.5x55 Swedish = 57.00 gr H₂O, pressure 3,800 bar

 

The nearest RS data to the 139 gr Scenar with the 6.5x47 Lapua round is with the 140 grain A-Max, the charge range for RS62 32.9 to 38.7 grains. But remember though the pressure for both cases are the same, the case capacity of the 6.5x47 Lapua is about 10% less than the 6.5 Creedmoor.

 

The RS data for the 6.5x55 Swedish with the 139 grain Scenar has a charge range with RS62 of 40.7 to 45.8 grains. As above, so though the maximum pressure for 6.5 Creedmoor is 14.5% higher than the Swedish, its case capacity is about 6% less.

 

Plugging these two charge levels into QuickLOAD, but with the 6.5 Creedmoor cartridge loaded with a 139 grain Scenar loaded to a COAL of 2.810" (this seeming often used), gives these results: low pressures of 1,659-2,562 bar with the 6.5x47 Lapua charge data; and low to maximum pressures of 2,976-4,316 bar with the 6.5x55 Swedish charge data.

 

Although QuickLOAD is purely an approximation, it does serve as a good guide. Going by the above and your original comments of people using charge weights of between 42-44 grains of RS62 with the 139 grain Scenar would seem to be about right.

So your best idea would be to start at about 39.0 grains of RS62 and work up, attempting to find the charge weight with the best accuracy, whilst all the time looking for signs or high pressure as you do so.

 

Hi BB69 any chance you could run a load data for me running a 6.5x47L 20in barrel with rs 62 and nosler BT 120 gr with cci,mag 450 primers

[BlueBoy69]

I think it would be best you post this as a separate thread and not take this thread off its intended subject. Once that's done, I or anyone else with QuickLOAD, will be able to post the data you require.

[shotgunner]

Cheers pal

Didn't mean to jump on someone else's post I do apologise