What bullet for small deer and long range varminting - .223?

[njc110381]

Hey guys. I appreciate this is a bit of a long shot but I'm wondering if there is a bullet available that will cover both long range varminting/targets and also be sensible to use on small deer? Usually what's good for one isn't good for the other, at least as far as I know that's the case?

 

I've just picked up a 1-8 twist Sako 75 .223 with the intention of chucking a .17 Rem barrel on it, but in the meantime I should probably get some use out of it. You never know, I may just decide to keep it as it is.

 

I'd be very grateful for your thoughts on this please...

[banus02]

i use 65gr sierra soft point and 69gr sierra tipped match king in 223rem both work very well, 3/4" difference at 150 yards so can swap and change depending on target,ie deer soft point other tipped match king ,these are my findings others can/will differ

[duey]

Tipped bullets can be explosive on impact which is not ideal for deer causing injury rather than a fatal shot, I would stick with soft nose bullets

You could always see if you can find two bullets with close enough POA/POI so you have best of both with one zero

 

The small deer species can be suprisingly tough to put down

[gbal]

Njcy ou summarise well-usually,no one bullet is optimum for both, you may find one that is adequate-though the priority for live quarry really has to be 'fully effective terminally'-which just does not apply for targets. You don't say what 'long range' means,which matters a bit too-if shots extend beyond about 250-300y then BC/increased bullet weight (and therefore wind resistance) come more and more into play.

Plasic 'ballistic' tips are a successful marketing idea,though the increase in BC is generally not great to 300y,when considering the few that may be live quarry useable-generally the advice already given is sound-soft point exposed lead bullets (not neccessarily all such in 224 for small deer).They are often designed for small varmints,so ok for eg crows-indeed can be excellent.

There are plenty options- about 100 different commercial loads-not all available in UK,though that includes some target and many varmint loads.It includes many softpoint designs,eg Fed ,Rem,Win,Norma,Black Hills etc ,and some game oriented tipped-Silvertips,Accutips etc...which may suit your quarry.As said,avoid the varmint bullets designed for minimal penetration,as they are most likely to wound (severely,maybe) small deer.(designed to expand?..Hmmm..on small deer??)

Long Range (400+) target etc shooting tends to ned the heavier bullets...up to 77g are common,but these tend to be target loaded..(Match KIng,Custom Competition etc)....there are some 60g+ game bullets.

 

One bullet that was very popular and effective on small deer up to Roe (222 legal in Scotland then) was the Norma Soft Point-53g,and also on vermin.Deer performance probably was down to its European design-for small mammals-there are no very obvious US equivalents,so US bullets are not explicitly designed for such.Does not mean that some won't work,but some won't work well. Banus eg finds the generally excellent Sierra bullet in 65g SP works for game,and 77G TMK works as a longer range target bullet. Note two bullets/loads though-which avoids compromising either set of differnt performance criteria. "One size fits all" generally should add "But not very well". Ranges may have restrictions on what kind of bullets are permissable.

 

ps Much as I liked the 17 Rem for rabbits to 250,above the 222,it isn't the ballistic equal of the more flexible 223,but does have it's own appeal,even if it in light sporter guise it gave up a little in 'group' size to the best ,but not enough to ever cause a miss. Sako 75 (or earlier) is a nice rifle in any sensible chambering!

 

gbal

[njc110381]

Thanks chaps. I already have a .17 Rem, in a CZ527. So the choice would be purely down to wanting another in a nicer action. I already have a .22-250 as well - another Sako 75.

 

The hard part about the long range question is that I really don't know the answer! I'd like to learn to shoot extended ranges with a target scope etc. I can already get reliable hits on foxes out to well over 300m with my .22-250. I now need to learn the skill of reading data and dialling to get hits out further on paper. I'd like to get out to 600m+.

 

What are your thoughts on the Hornady 70gr GMX? It's got the weight, but being lead free I don't suppose the BC is great? I don't really understand what those numbers mean?! There are a couple of offerings in 65gr sp - the Sierra being one of them. That way of thinking might work. I could swap ammunition over from targets to deer. As long as the two hit a similar POI at say 150 yards, I could concentrate on the match bullets for accuracy and sub MOA would do for the deer. I won't shoot them at range anyway. I don't believe it's right and I don't enjoy it.

 

Main issue is that I drive past a piece of ground that I shoot over on the way back from the range. It's not that close to home so being able to use the same gun for both uses would save fuel! I don't like leaving a gun in the car whilst hunting with another.

[gbal]

Sako did the 75 in a varmint barrel version. The earlier A1 action is also even nicer as a 17 (mne was 222) and Sako did a carbine option... But i see the 'want' if not need! 22/250 will outshoot them all of course...and there is a case for it Long Range over even the 243,as it has good terminal performance small varmint bullets available-which,as yet,the otherwise superior 243 does not...we are though talking pretty long range...600+..

BC is a number that reflects the bullets retardation in flight...sort of drag,compared to some standard projectile...basically ,the higher the BC the less drag and therefore the less drop,and especially wind drift...what the b ullet is made of (lead eg) isn't directly critical-its weight and length and profile in calibre...there are always new bullets coming on line-as your mentioned H 70 GMX lead free. BC also reduces with velocity-something only Sierra gives direct data on-BC at three bullet velocities.There is also some controversy about 'BC' and the best comparison is via Bergers/Applied Ballistics values....esp as G7 (not the usual GI-these refer to the basic base line comparator-G1is more like a 22rf bullet,G7 the more typical boat tail tapered nose;as a rougfh guide a G7 value for a bullet will be about half that same bullet as a G1-BC performance is same,it's just a differnt 'scale'-G7 is better scale though-more stable esp for tapered,boat tail bullets,And yes,the exact nose taper matters a bit (tangent,secant,VLD-very low drag,and best of both-Hybrid;as does boat tail v flat base)....don't get too exasperated,but better BC is ...well better,on drop and drift-but this shows much more beyond about 250 yards,,,up till then,velocity is at least as good a guide to ballistics-so the 22/250 wins out with almost any bullet!

OK...POI really just has to be checked-there is no formula etc for assuming the same POI in any one rifle-it's try and see...but two POI within a couple of inches can be reconciled via scope clicks...so manageable-I agree about rifles left in cars - not good practice!

Short range for deer helps...and I understand you don't commit yet to ranges on targets...vermin may be limited by accuracy....a crow is pretty thin by 250y in moa terms,you'd need 1/2 moa precision,even with perect other factors-implausible? You should not need any better for targets-as it's a compromise rig (and calibre) you are not talking top class long range precision/accuracy...more 'club level',so do-able....gongs etc are generally no smaller than moa,nor paper targets.

There used to be some 'grey areas' and issues maybe with some bullets about 'designed to expand' for deer-they may well not be currently be in production.....

As before,you can check out advice here,but it comes down to your rifle too-rifles are not wildly different,but neither are they all clones-see what works for yours,and you should find two good for purpose bullets...close enough in POI to simply scope adjust as needed,to a tolerable compromise (especially at shortish range-which you favour,admirably,for deer...where half an moa isn't going to be the decisive factor.) I found a 222 with 50g Norma soft points covered rather well for AOLQ to 200/250y in the (scottish) borders,and good on paper;the. The standard 222 slower twist would not stabilise 60g SPs.

The 17rem had a slight subjective edge for small vermin only.

 

g

[Chanonry]

Had the 75 Varmint in 223

 

50gr Vmax was the best deer bullet i found.

 

Can't remember the load but knowing me it would be pretty much max with Benchmark, seated 10 thou off the lands. 0.25 moa with a better shooter than me (eh!).

 

Used the Lee Collet dies. Amazing load. No fiddling about, just loaded up, did a pressure test and went with it.

 

Excellent kills on Roe, rapid kills at 'normal' ranges, little unnecessary damage, does not blow through. Never tried it past 200, better things for that job probably ?

 

Shot some 70gr HPBT as well. Better in the wind at long range, but its hard to see this as a decent load for the 223 unless its a 223 only competition. Sure it extends the envelope but to what end ?? Better off with a 243 or a fast twist 22-250 ?

[cooter]

A cheap and very effective varmint round in my .223 is the Sierra S1455C.

I use them for pretty much everything and they are excellent out to a long way. Kranks are doing them in bulk for £150.

 

On the soft points I use the 1395, which have proven to be very accurate but they will pencil occasionally.

A better option might be the Hornady 55Grn SP or the 55Grn Nosler Varmageddon. McAvoy guns are selling the SP for £21.90 per 100, or the Nosler Varmageddon at £46.75 for 250.

 

All of the above have proven to be accurate out to a range beyond where I use them for pest control.

[Borisserge]

What has been my go-to for vermin (mainly fox) in .223 and 22-250 were nosler BT, and Sierra 55gr soft point (1365) for deer. The 22-250 and Sierra combowwas devastating in accuracy and dropping without runners. The Nosler did the job well on both too.

As an option, depending how many deer you intend on shooting, is it maybe worthwhile making up a target or long range varmint round, and just buy a box of factory ammo for the deer.

[bully]

I have used 80gr amax with good success

[David Hancock]

.223 55gr Sako Gamehead SP

[ejg223]

Used Sako 55gr quite a bit on fox, they are good. But I had better long range accuracy, better more consistent terminal performance and penetration with 69gr Nos Custom match. Also the 52gr version was not bad. Some match bullets work very well on game but not all. Of course only if you are allowed to use them in the area you shoot.

edi

[David Hancock]

Morning Edi. I use the Sako's as most of my deer shooting is under 120 yards.

 

I've just started using GECO 56gr Vmax for longer range and fox. Very accurate and great value.

[Simon J]

Gbal said US bullet makers don't design for small mammals, but aren't coyote small mammals and they seem to shoot any awful lot of small wild hogs out there now too. So shouldn't there be more suitable US made bullets now as both will be small deer sized?

[gbal]

Simon, I meant that 'varmints' vary considerably in vulnerability(mammals /not isn't the issue,except to exclude corvids and lizards etc).

Varmint Grenades (and similar light bullets designed to fragment very easily) are very effective on the major US varmint shot-the prairie dog,which is roughly small squirrel size. It may well be that such bullets are not really the best coyote bullets, and that eg Norma bullets were designed/have a good track record on European fox/small deer....

But I do take your point- any US bullet that has a good track record on small hogs might be a contender....so which are these bullets....some (you tube,agreed) hog shoots with 223 seem rather less than convincing in ethical terminal performance-but bullets used not known.

So why not use the (Norma) SPs ,as some have mentioned for our small deer,where legal,having a decent performance record up to and including roe-a not quite so small UK deer species? They are 'expanding missiles' too....by makers designation/design-Sako ammunition (eg Gamehead) even had little picture/icons for suitable quarryand one is a 'reh'/roe.....your honour.

 

g

[22cf]

I am not going to profess to be a ballistic expert because i'm certainly not, however from recent real life experiences.

 

I have shot 5 muntjac over the last 12 months, all with 55Grain Sierra Blitzkings from a .223rem at 3250fps, all at ranges under 200yds, all in the front of the chest and all dropped on the spot. The flesh damage was minimal in actual fact 2 of the 5 were through and through exiting with a 1 1/2" hole on exit. The same bullet from the same rifle has taken dialled in pigeons at 400yds+.

[247sniper]

I use 80 grain Amax in my 223AI. Fantastic for long range vermin, long range targets. Im not sure on the UK legalities with using Amax bullets on deer as im not from there but i know it will easily do the job.

[njc110381]

Crikey - there's a bit to read through and take in here. I think I'll have to go back to the beginning and read it again!

 

80gr A-Max sounds like a good target option. It's also interesting to hear views from shooters in other countries that use them for deer. Here I don't think they are legal, as they are not marketed as designed to expand in a controlled manner.

 

One bullet I would like to try for targets is the 75gr Prvi Match. Does anyone have any experience of those? At £14/100 they will be great for freehand plinking at gongs. I keep telling myself that my field shooting would benefit from more of that kind of use at the range, so I may well use this gun to do that for a while.

 

Edit... I knew I'd missed something. The 55gr Varmageddon would be easy for me to try. It's my current bullet for my .22-250, although I've just switched to Berger Varmint as I picked up 1000 of them on the cheap!

[chaz]

I believe the A-Max is being phased out with the new ELD Match taking it's place. Apparently due to the original A-Max plastic tip deforming at targets over 400+ yards... I've just bought some .223 Rem 75 ELD Match. I would have taken the 80's but they were out of stock...

No idea what there like as i've yet to build a load up with them, but they're very close when it comes to Ogive, and length though.

 

Edit. - I've just been told by the Mrs that we have a large frozen turkey that needs throwing out. I feel a defrost and ELD Match bullet test coming on!