How much neck do you size??

[chaz]

Hi folks,

I'm after some advice regarding necking sizing.

In brief, how much of the neck should i size for target shooting? But still maintain a certain amount of "strength" to avoid knocking the bullet out of concentric?

I'm led to believe target shooters only size a very small amount of the neck. I presume it's because the rounds are treated with more care. As apposed to hunters who i'm led to believe size most of the neck, to keep everything "straight" as the ammo may get knocked about.

Is there any middle ground, say 50% of the neck?

Also, what are the pro's and con's of differing neck sizes? With regard to accuracy, pressure and anything else i may not have asked?

Constructive advice would be appreciated.

I ask, as I've just bought some .224 75 grain Hornady ELD match, and want to get the most from it.

Thanks

Chaz.

[gbal]

Chaz,the accuarcy/precisionn performance of any bullet is mostly determined by whether that barrel 'likes' it-assuming competent reloading proceedures.Somebarrels just. Won't perform at their best with some bullets.

Are you asking about the 'best' neck tension on bullets-that is a function of the neck diameter (rather than hoe much of the neck is actually sized to any one diameter-which is a proceedure only relay used as a 'false shulder' in some fire forming .

Assuming you are asking about neck sizing for differnt neck tensions-you are generally correct-target shooters can have less tension,hunters are advised to apply more-because of less gentle treatment/buffeting in the magazine.Bullets-even for targeting,should be heldby a minimum of one bullet diameter of neck depth...as a guide (less risks coming loose-you do not want that-eg if you have to open bolt on a non fired bullet-possibly held by rifleing,and bullet separates from case and spills powder into trigger...bad news!.

OK,so what necjk tension-the general rule of thumb,is to use a neck bushing (you have bushing dies?) that gives neck tension about as follows-

Load the bullet you intend to use in an empty case-measure the diameter on the neck at a point ypu are sure the bullet has entered to...as above should be at least one bullet diameter,but is likely to be near the beginning of the sholder...(varies with seating depth chosen,of course).That outside diameter of the case is your base measure,and by increasing it as follows,you will have your best neck bushing size-for target type use,subtract .002" and that is your bushing size-if yu are not using neck turned/trued up cases,you might opt for .003' less. Maybe best to do a few cases,and get an average-thay should all be close.TRy rotating ase 90 degrees-to check.If you are loading for a bolt action magazine (hunting) rifle,a bushing .003 smaller than the base neck measurement will give a bit more security on the neck tensoio/bullet retention.

(You migh come across military ammo with crimped in primers even,to resist machine gun pressures,and crimped in bullets-a small apir of dints in the neck-similaerly to keep bullet in place under stresse. "WE" use neck tension,as above, You may want to have a bushing on either side of the above-necks can thicken and need a larger bushing...occasioally coated bullets(moly) need a one size down...

One last comment-Wilson hand dies only resize the upper 40% of the case neck,and Redding bushing screw in dies allow you to vary the amount (length) of neck resized.BUt the bushing is the main tension control.In Wison dies,witha slight taper,inserting the bushing with size maring down sizes approx .0005 smaller.Don't read this as saying that precision is needed...check out the .018 aggregate (25 shots) for a rail gun reported this week on Accurate Shooter-where the tension,and even bullet weight,was not accurately known...and these guys take real care...consistency,yes.

 

Sorry,it reads longer than the basiic simple process,but I've tried to cover both-I doubt that you mean neck lengrth,and are asking about neck diameter...as above.. These are general guidlines...not absolutes,but you don't want too losse a bullet retention-ie wobble...:-). It is a minor factor,probably-esp as actual effective tension cannot really be measured (though a KM arbor press with dial helps....I'd keep that for your expert years,though,as it still does not really identify which process gives less tension-just enables you to batch rounds...but not for now...and good luck with your chosen bullet...it may well be the one...or not-then Bergers are often worth a try-if.1 moa matters... :-)

gbal

[The Gun Pimp]

Chaz, try this:

 

Size the necks of 5 cases just 50%

Size the necks of 5 cases fully to the shoulder.

 

Seat bullets in each and measure the run-out of the bullet - assuming you have a concentricity gauge.

 

It may - or may not - tell you if there is an advantage in either option. Personally, I size the whole of the neck.

[snakeman]

For neck-tension

 

1. Load a round and measure the case neck with calipers.. (take note of that measurement)

2. Fire that loaded round and measure neck diameter again of the fired round ..(note the diameter neck: it would have grown)

3. Use a collet die to size neck 0.2 smaller than your original loaded round.. this is achieved by making just minute turns of the die adjuster until the desired (0.2 smaller) measure is reached

 

Vwallah! ..you have your 'target' round ....(if that's what your barrel 'likes')

 

There really is absolutely no need to over-egg the pudding on this, - simplicity in itself

 

ATB

[Brillo]

Full length size and be done with it. You'll have to do it after 4-6 rounds anyway because at some point the brass won't chamber. Therefore, if you have to full length size eventually why not do it every time?

[MrCetrizine]

The more people I speak to, the more tell me not to bother with neck sizing. I don't know if they're right or wrong as I've never tried it.

 

My current method is to decap with a universal decapping die, full length size with the decapping rod and expander removed then expand with a mandrel that gives -0.002 of calibre.

[Catch-22]

I agree with Brillo but I think you can have the best of both worlds.

I've just treated myself to some new Whidden FL bushing dies - these have the added benefit of allowing you to adjust the neck tension (via interchangeable redding or wilson bushings) whilst still full length sizing the case 0.02" or whatever you want.

Tasty!

[chaz]

Thanks for the replies folks.

There's a lot to take in there. Or at least it seems to be to me!

gbal, It was more about how much of the neck to size, as apposed to the neck tension.

I was told a few years ago, to always seat a bullet at least as deep as it's width, so i always do that. Albeit, i've only needed to be sure of that once.

I do not possess a bushing die, just neck sizing, or full length sizing. I have also had people tell me they FL size every time. And from what i hear, for my needs, one or the other would probably suffice.

 

As for doing a batch test, sizing half the neck, then all of it, i don't have a concentricity gauge, so that's a non starter.

 

I suppose, in a nutshell, i wondered if only neck sizing half the neck with my standard Hornady neck sizing die, then adjusting it to do the whole neck, may make a difference. I don't really want to go more high tech, with more equipment.

 

I don't recall if I've done a group of 4-5 shots fire formed and then neck sized, and compared them to identical rounds, but having full length sized them. Perhaps i should try??

 

Just to add, i'm off to have a read on the article on Accurate Shooter.

 

Cheers for the replies folks.

Chaz.

[snakeman]

Thanks for the replies folks.

There's a lot to take in there. Or at least it seems to be to me!

gbal, It was more about how much of the neck to size, as apposed to the neck tension.

I was told a few years ago, to always seat a bullet at least as deep as it's width, so i always do that. Albeit, i've only needed to be sure of that once.

I do not possess a bushing die, just neck sizing, or full length sizing. I have also had people tell me they FL size every time. And from what i hear, for my needs, one or the other would probably suffice.

 

As for doing a batch test, sizing half the neck, then all of it, i don't have a concentricity gauge, so that's a non starter.

 

I suppose, in a nutshell, i wondered if only neck sizing half the neck with my standard Hornady neck sizing die, then adjusting it to do the whole neck, may make a difference. I don't really want to go more high tech, with more equipment.

 

I don't recall if I've done a group of 4-5 shots fire formed and then neck sized, and compared them to identical rounds, but having full length sized them. Perhaps i should try??

 

Just to add, i'm off to have a read on the article on Accurate Shooter.

 

Cheers for the replies folks.

Chaz.

 

In my experience this makes no difference. I've tried both half and full neck sizing and the results for accuracy have been the same. I did the 50% method in an attempt to prolong the necks..

 

I'm a great believer in neck-sizing as opposed to FL sizing each batch. I've very nearly always found neck-sizing produces more consistently accurate rounds, although others will swear by FL sizing but, that's a personal preference. Learn to use the Lee collet die correctly and you'll be pleasantly surprised. Unfortunately folk do not take the time to learn and practice to use this indispensable little collet die correctly

[Andrew]

Full length size and be done with it. You'll have to do it after 4-6 rounds anyway because at some point the brass won't chamber. Therefore, if you have to full length size eventually why not do it every time?

This. I have found my loads more consistent with FL resizing.~Andrew

[gbal]

Chaz,OK-the point of neck sizing is to give enough tension to hold the bullet reasonably securely (target) or very securely (mag/hunting).Clearly there is no grip in a fired case.

Vince gives the easy way to see if half/whole neck sizing makes any differnce-probably not,and it won't be conclusively down to just the length of neck sized-bullet seating depth will alter unused case volume/pressure etc etc...but the differnce is probably undetectable in most rifles.

That may also be true for neck/full resizing-unless you can reliably shoot to bench rest standards with the rig.Full length case resizing is an added security for hunting,easy chambering.Neck sizing works brass less.You should seat to at least bullet diameter into the neck,minimum.I can't see any advantage in not sizing all the neck to the same diameter,even if you don't seat to the neck-that is determined by your optimal seating depth,of course-cartridge base to ogive(as bullet vary in length,fromthe same box-ogives much less so).

Bottom line-you will have to full lengh size sometime anyhow with most rifles,,as has been said,but without bushing dies you have no control over tension etc anyhow;and small differences will persist...probably to no visible on target effect.Full length or full neck resize as you wish,with your dies,and see if you detect any meaningfull difference-and ask if it matters...it is unlikely to be much,if detectable at all.Getting "better' escalates the equipment costs quite a bit.

Some of all this comes from BenchRest-where .05 moa is podium/not and .1 is a huge differnce in grouping. That is not so in most other shooting-so no need for hi spec/tech dies and all the other gear-run out guages etc etc...these are serious toys for uber serious boys... IF you don't see much differnce in your loading options,be happy and enjoy-it's easy to overlook the big factor-an extra mph of wind eg which will be a bigger bullet disperser than most of the seating etc. (But still not critical at 200+yards for most.For most of us, rather few misses /failures are down to .00x in seating depth,BC,neck tension,powder kernels...etc etc.compared to shooter error.

No harm in 'aiming' for perfect ammo,of course-but it is elusive and costly-as is the perfect rifle to shoot it!!

 

gbal

[chaz]

Thanks for your indepth replies George, much appreciated. As is everyone's comments.

I've decided to size all of the neck. Oddly enough, i measured the neck of sized cases, and then several loaded rounds.

I measured around 10 neck sized cases, against the neck of a loaded rounds. The difference went from 2 and 3 thou. I presume that is good??

I always highly polish the expander of all my dies with rubbing compound, then with T-Cut, all done using a cordless drill. Could that account for the low amount of tension?. Perhaps i took a small amount of the metal away??

Just to add, i always use the Ogive to take any measurements when reloading. As George has said the overall length of most bullets is not consistent, compared to the Ogive.

Now I just need to develop a good powder charge for these new ELD Match 75 grain heads, compared to my old usual 75 grain A-Max's. As they're almost identical with regard to Ogive position and over all length, i presume i don't need to start back at the beginning due to very similar dimensions? I was just going to drop the load by 1 grain and build up in .2's of a grain, shooting groups of 4 rounds, checking for pressure signs as i go. What do you members think of my plans for the powder load of my new round?

Cheers

Chaz.