Alternative to H4350 for 6.5 Creedmoor

[lenteped]

Given the unicorn poo status of 4350, what would anyone suggest as an alternative for 140gr and 129gr jacketed for 6.5 Creed? I'd be grateful for suggestions.

[Hobbit]

I am using RS62 for 140 gr Berger Hybrids and 139 gr scenars

 

The RS62 was recommended by Laurie - is single base so won't shred the barrel and is available here and arguably is positioned to match 4350 - It is early days but the barrel ran in and shot well with it

 

With the scenar 139's my accuracy node was 42.9 gr of RS62 with an average MV of 2774 fps but these were loaded short AOL 2.71

with the Berger 140 hybrids it was 43.2 gr of RS 62 with a 5 round average 2779 fps and a SD of only 5fps OAL 2.815

In both cases I was typically 20 fps below what quick load predicted

 

I went a bit higher but accuracy dropped off and whilst the brass had no signs i reached a point where bolt lift was a bit heavy

[banus02]

i would think n150/100 to 125gr bullets, n550 for 130 to 140gr bullets,or for velocity n560.i use all three but in 6.5x55.

[pow1]

Hobbit, why do you load them short and not say 10tho off the lands?

[Laurie]

i would think n150/n550 or for velocity n560.i use all three but in 6.5x55.

 

What works in 6.5X55 doesn't necessarily do so in the smaller capacity Creedmoor case. Just looking at Viht's data for the pair shows that N160 is the slowest powder listed for the Creedmoor with any bullet weight whilst 6.5X55 SKAN has N560 loads for every bullet from the 108gn Scenar upwards in weight, and N165 data for the 136 and 139gn Scenars. (Personally, I use N165 in this cartridge with 140s and stay clear of 560 even though I have a tin or two of the stuff.)

 

N150 will produce excessive pressure (often suddenly!) before it reaches H4350 MVs with 140s. (It may be a good choice though for 120/123gn bullets.) It has a lower specific energy rating than either RS62 or H4350 and despite usually being shown as an equivalent to them in burning rate charts, my experience is that behaves as if it is considerably faster burning than either in this application.

 

N560 is too slow burning for the Creedmoor case size and like many 'high-energy' powders will often produce erratic results at sub-standard pressures. You need to have very heavy charge compression in the Creedmoor before you hit normal working pressures with this propellant. I'm not at all sure how well the small primer ignition in the Lapua Creedmoor case will work with this powder in heavily compressed charges around the 47/48gn mark either.

 

N550 is about 'right' for this cartridge, but for myself I'd use single-base RS62 any day for almost the same (MV) performance but with a single-based propellant.

 

Another alternative to H4350 in any application is\ the recently introduced IMR-4451 one of the new IMR 'Enduron' powders that are much more temperature insensitive than 'legacy' IMR grades such as IMR-4350 and contains an anti-copper fouling agent. Perhaps, more pertinent to us and our continental European friends, it is a 'clean' powder lacking traditional modifiers and deterrents that are toxic / carcinogenic and is therefore EU acceptable. As of mid 2018, a VERY large number of propellants will lose their CE certification making it illegal to import them into the EU. (All European manufactured grades are compliant and that means Alliant too whose rifle grades are of European origin from either Bofors or Nitrochemie and Ramshot ball powders which originate in Belgium.)

[Hobbit]

pow1

 

My chamber was cut so that the Berger 140 gr Hybrid touches the lands with an OAL of 2.83"

 

Given the geometry (tangent then more VLD type secant) of the hybrid this means that the chamber is actually quite short and the more tangent based scenar actually touches the lands at an oal of 2.73 or so - hence short and I need to be careful of pressure because of both reduced case capacity and the fact that I am starting touching (the induced worry is exacerbated by a shortage of empirical load data for the RS62 and Lauries suggestion that quick load underestimates pressures in the mid size 6.5mm calibre's

 

The good news is that as the throat wears out I can move from the hybrids to the scenars....

[Charlts]

I've had great results using RS52 and 130gr TMK's in mine, could be worth a look for the 129's.

[pow1]

Charlts,

 

What mv are you gettimg with that combination as ive got some tmks and was going to get rs62..

[lenteped]

Blimey--makes me realise how little I know, but I'm learning. Thanks guys, most helpful. Exactly what a forum is for.

[baldie]

I've always used vhit 150 with 123 grain scenars for several years, with good velocity and accuracy.

[phaedra1106uk]

Tried out some N150 with the Nosler 140's last weekend, very nice grouping, didn't have a chance to chrono them though, will do it next shoot if I get the time. Also using N140 with 100gr Scenars, again very nice groups.

[gun nut]

Had very good results with H414 and 123 Amax just this weekend. Velocity is around 2700 and holding 1/3 moa out to 300m in a 20" barrel. The velocity is nothing to right home about but its a walk about stalker and 2700 is all I'll need to dispatch deer.

[Boydy47]

 

What works in 6.5X55 doesn't necessarily do so in the smaller capacity Creedmoor case. Just looking at Viht's data for the pair shows that N160 is the slowest powder listed for the Creedmoor with any bullet weight whilst 6.5X55 SKAN has N560 loads for every bullet from the 108gn Scenar upwards in weight, and N165 data for the 136 and 139gn Scenars. (Personally, I use N165 in this cartridge with 140s and stay clear of 560 even though I have a tin or two of the stuff.)

 

N150 will produce excessive pressure (often suddenly!) before it reaches H4350 MVs with 140s. (It may be a good choice though for 120/123gn bullets.) It has a lower specific energy rating than either RS62 or H4350 and despite usually being shown as an equivalent to them in burning rate charts, my experience is that behaves as if it is considerably faster burning than either in this application.

 

N560 is too slow burning for the Creedmoor case size and like many 'high-energy' powders will often produce erratic results at sub-standard pressures. You need to have very heavy charge compression in the Creedmoor before you hit normal working pressures with this propellant. I'm not at all sure how well the small primer ignition in the Lapua Creedmoor case will work with this powder in heavily compressed charges around the 47/48gn mark either.

 

N550 is about 'right' for this cartridge, but for myself I'd use single-base RS62 any day for almost the same (MV) performance but with a single-based propellant.

 

Another alternative to H4350 in any application is\ the recently introduced IMR-4451 one of the new IMR 'Enduron' powders that are much more temperature insensitive than 'legacy' IMR grades such as IMR-4350 and contains an anti-copper fouling agent. Perhaps, more pertinent to us and our continental European friends, it is a 'clean' powder lacking traditional modifiers and deterrents that are toxic / carcinogenic and is therefore EU acceptable. As of mid 2018, a VERY large number of propellants will lose their CE certification making it illegal to import them into the EU. (All European manufactured grades are compliant and that means Alliant too whose rifle grades are of European origin from either Bofors or Nitrochemie and Ramshot ball powders which originate in Belgium.)

 

Do I need to stock up on Lil gun for the Hornet??

 

You mention Ramshot too, I really like ramshot powders in .223 (Tac and Ext) but they have disappeared off of the shelves, i have heard varying reasons for this, anyone have a definitive answer as I'd definitely look at using their powders in the creedmoor if supply was consistent

[Laurie]

Lil Gun is a modern 'clean' powder so shouldn't be under threat. Can't help on Ramshot - I know that PB Clermont had a bad fire a couple of years back and had to shut the plant down, so it may be an ongoing result of that. ........ or maybe something quite unrelated.

[Boydy47]

Lil Gun is a modern 'clean' powder so shouldn't be under threat. Can't help on Ramshot - I know that PB Clermont had a bad fire a couple of years back and had to shut the plant down, so it may be an ongoing result of that. ........ or maybe something quite unrelated.

Thanks Laurie, Glad the favourite powder of my favourite rifle is not under threat.

 

Sorry Op for bringing the thread off tack a bit! On a creedmoor note tested some 85 gr Sierra varminters over N140 last night, accuracy was good!

[treetop]

3 of us shooting buddy's all use Creedmoors and all use different powders,

I currently run H4350, 1 pal is using Varget and the other 8208 XBR & we all ' light' load, so the fastest is just under 2900 fps

We all run bullets between 100 gr and 123 gr in either Sierra or Hornady & all are devistatingingly accurate. Granted the main use for our rifles is in the field and mainly at 500 yards or less.

I don't know what powders out of our 3 will still be around in a couple of years, but for now we are all happy !

[Charlts]

Thanks Laurie, Glad the favourite powder of my favourite rifle is not under threat.

 

Sorry Op for bringing the thread off tack a bit! On a creedmoor note tested some 85 gr Sierra varminters over N140 last night, accuracy was good!

Need to know more about this please, I've been eying those up for a while!

[Boydy47]

I

Need to know more about this please, I've been eying those up for a while!

Well got them on the recommendation of a friend who uses them in .260 and describes them as devastating. Was only the first round of testing with powder weights loosely based around Viht's N140/100 gr data. Brass was fire formed fed .243 (can't stand the thought of losing my lapua cases in the field) and murom LR primers, load testing was 100 yards off the truck roof so not bad but not bench rested!! . Best powder weight 4 shot group was .31" and 2 were .51 and .52, no signs of pressure at all so could have gone higher but the .31" (41.5 gr from memory) should give 3185 fps according to QL which is enough for my purposes.

 

Obviously what's safe in my rifle (hoaw varmint, 24" barrel) may not be in yours so work up etc. but looks promising, harvest is under way so will get to try on Fox soon hopefully. Only down side is feed wasn't always great, due to the wide hollow point and short COAL. (2.6") but if I didn't work the bolt too slowly fed fine. By all accounts the 100 gr are equally accurate and devastating!

[Spiker]

Having spent a small fortune on the rifle I had no desire to pay £100 per kilo for H4350 so I set about finding alternatives. Here we have plenty of rain but a very small powder choice. Apparently the powder trail ends at Carlisle.

 

143g ELD using RS62 on the initial load development achieved groups of sub .75 MOA at 100 yards using Hornady brass. ES was just into double figures. The cost of the bullets put me off developing this any further.

 

139g Scenars using N150 achieved phenomenal accuraccy with fps of 2730 which is perfect for what I want. ES of 6. Hornady brass with Fed primers.

 

139g Scenars using Lovex 073.6 consistently under .5 MOA at 100 yards and comfortably producing low 2800fps. Hornady brass with Fed primers.

 

139g Scenars using N160 sub .75 MOA but the fps didn't compare favourably with either N150 or RS62.

 

120g AMax using RS62 .25 MOA and just under the 3000 mark. I have been up to 3120 with accuraccy of.5MOA. Hornady brass with Fed primers.

 

120g AMAX using H414 ( I was given a tub) fairly easy to achieve 3000fps but the accuraccy required more load development and I have yet to find the time.

 

Having spent a second small fortune on bullets, brass and powder I decided to reduce the cost of the brass by converting FC 22-250. Using my pet load above for 139g Scenars I blew the first nine primers and stopped. The same load in Hornady brass is an absolute delight to use and rings the gongs out to 1000 yards. I have toyed with the idea of converting Lapua .308 Palma brass but having converted 300, 22-250 I will simply buy Lapua CM brass and cry just once well alright twice. I now have the joy of case prep to look forward to.

 

I know my barrel (Bartlein) is tight and that is the reason I have not posted any details of my load development. I have shared them with Laurie and they are all relatively light modest loads which according to QL produce psi of under 52000. The exception being the 3120fps 120g AMax load. This load gave no indication of excessive pressure.

 

With the new EU rules coming into force next June I am happy to remain with Vih and RS powders.

 

For what it is worth IMO the CM is one of those calibres which lend themselves to experimentation. Having spent my adult life shooting .243 and .308 the CM is wonderful fun.

 

Spiker

 

 

 

 

[Laurie]

That's an interesting result from Lovex DO73.6 (known to many as Accurate Arms 2520) Keith, a ball powder from the Czech Republic for those who've not come across it before. Over the years I've had some excellent results and very high velocities from it, especially in 223 with 75gn AMax bullets. I'd not considered it for the Creedmoor though.

 

Its downside and one that puts me off using it is that the fouling left on the case-neck is an absolute b*gger to get off if you leave the cases for even a day or two - it goes very hard. Two answers - 1) spray the tops of the cases with WD40, better still Ballostoil, immediately after firing, leave for 5 or 10 minutes and then wipe the necks / shoulders clean with a bit of paper towel; 2) STM wet tumbling should take it off irrespective of how long since firing. I say 'should' as I haven't tried this cure myself not having used this powder recently.

[chaz]

That's an interesting result from Lovex DO73.6 (known to many as Accurate Arms 2520) Keith, a ball powder from the Czech Republic for those who've not come across it before. Over the years I've had some excellent results and very high velocities from it, especially in 223 with 75gn AMax bullets. I'd not considered it for the Creedmoor though.

 

Its downside and one that puts me off using it is that the fouling left on the case-neck is an absolute b*gger to get off if you leave the cases for even a day or two - it goes very hard. Two answers - 1) spray the tops of the cases with WD40, better still Ballostoil, immediately after firing, leave for 5 or 10 minutes and then wipe the necks / shoulders clean with a bit of paper towel; 2) STM wet tumbling should take it off irrespective of how long since firing. I say 'should' as I haven't tried this cure myself not having used this powder recently.

Hi Laurie. What sort of velocity were you getting from the Lovex DO73.6 / Accurate Arms 2520 with the 75 A-Max, in .223 Rem??

Also, were you getting any signs of over pressure anywhere?

Cheers

Chaz.

[MarkR]

This is my first post to this forum, although I am not new to shooting or reloading.

 

I read with interest what everyone has to say, in particularly about the 6.5 Creedmoor (which I have just purchased and setting myself up with the appropriate loading dies etc).

 

Below I have quoted what Spiker has said about " the new EU rules coming into force next June" which I know nothing about.

 

So before I start messing around with any particular Powders, I would be extremely grateful if someone can enlighten me about these "new EU Rules", and how it will affect reloading in general.

 

Regards MarkR

 

With the new EU rules coming into force next June I am happy to remain with Vih and RS powders.

 

For what it is worth IMO the CM is one of those calibres which lend themselves to experimentation. Having spent my adult life shooting .243 and .308 the CM is wonderful fun.

[Laurie]

Hi Laurie. What sort of velocity were you getting from the Lovex DO73.6 / Accurate Arms 2520 with the 75 A-Max, in .223 Rem??

Also, were you getting any signs of over pressure anywhere?

Cheers

Chaz.

 

Too long ago to find in my records. It was a good combination then and still will be now if you don't mind DO73.6's dirty burning characteristics - my use was pre STM case cleaning which is a game changer in this regard.

 

Many other things have changed too in the last 10 or 15 years - the choice of powders that provide very high MVs in 223 has increased substantially. Reload Swiss RS40 and RS52 spring immediately to mind, but there are many others.

[Laurie]

 

 

So before I start messing around with any particular Powders, I would be extremely grateful if someone can enlighten me about these "new EU Rules", and how it will affect reloading in general.

 

Regards MarkR

 

 

 

 

'REACH' - Regulation (EC) 1907/2006 concerning the Registration, Evaluation, Authorisation, and restriction of CHemicals

 

A 10 year old EU programme that sees final and full implementation next year and which affects any chemicals, or any product containing chemicals used in any field for any purpose. So it affects anything and everything that you use from washing up liquid to herbicides and insecticides, rat poisons, cleaning agents, .... etc, etc. The entire supply chain is affected from importer / manufacturer through trade and retail distribution chains up to sale to the final consumer.

 

Not just the finished product examined, but each and every ingredient. If any has any chemicals in the mix for which past studies have shown any health or environmental risks, the product has to be reformulated to replace them with approved ingredients or else withdrawn. To manufacture or import any non-REACH listed and approved substance will be an offence in EU law which in turn means in all member states' domestic laws.

 

All propellants manufactured in the EU and associated states are now REACH compliant - so Bofors, Vihtavuori, Vectan, Reload Swiss, PB Clermont (Ramshot), Explosia / Lovex. All Alliant ATK rifle powders currently imported to Europe are actually of European origin and OK, ie the Reloder series.

 

General Dynamics Canada which makes IMR powders has introduced five new 'green' pistol / revolver powders and four new ('Enduron') rifle powders. These are all made to the latest environmental safety standards, so will almost certainly be approved.

 

The rest? We'll have to wait and see as announcements are made as to what is in and what is out.

 

So, anybody loading the 6.5 Creedmoor (or anything else) with Viht or RS products can continue to do without worries.

[MarkR]

 

 

'REACH' - Regulation (EC) 1907/2006 concerning the Registration, Evaluation, Authorisation, and restriction of CHemicals

 

A 10 year old EU programme that sees final and full implementation next year and which affects any chemicals, or any product containing chemicals used in any field for any purpose. So it affects anything and everything that you use from washing up liquid to herbicides and insecticides, rat poisons, cleaning agents, .... etc, etc. The entire supply chain is affected from importer / manufacturer through trade and retail distribution chains up to sale to the final consumer.

 

Not just the finished product examined, but each and every ingredient. If any has any chemicals in the mix for which past studies have shown any health or environmental risks, the product has to be reformulated to replace them with approved ingredients or else withdrawn. To manufacture or import any non-REACH listed and approved substance will be an offence in EU law which in turn means in all member states' domestic laws.

 

All propellants manufactured in the EU and associated states are now REACH compliant - so Bofors, Vihtavuori, Vectan, Reload Swiss, PB Clermont (Ramshot), Explosia / Lovex. All Alliant ATK rifle powders currently imported to Europe are actually of European origin and OK, ie the Reloder series.

 

General Dynamics Canada which makes IMR powders has introduced five new 'green' pistol / revolver powders and four new ('Enduron') rifle powders. These are all made to the latest environmental safety standards, so will almost certainly be approved.

 

The rest? We'll have to wait and see as announcements are made as to what is in and what is out.

 

So, anybody loading the 6.5 Creedmoor (or anything else) with Viht or RS products can continue to do without worries.

 

Laurie

 

Many thanks for your prompt and very detailed reply, I currently use Vihtavuori Powders when reloading for 243 7x64 and 3006, so no problem there, so will head the advice that has been given when deciding which Powder for the 6.5CM.

 

Many thanks again, regards MarkR