Club load using senars and n165

[dorg]

With Bergers reaching silly money I am wanting to sort a cheaper club load for a straight 284 using 180 grain senar l and n165, or a viht powder does anybody have a starting load and what jam or jump these tips like please.

[Elwood]

I'm sure Laurie will help you out with the N165 load. It will be slow but the barrel should last. N160 will also work.

 

I tried some Scenars in my .284 going from 20 thou off, 10 off to just about touching and there was a noticeable difference, with the just touching load being by far and away the best.

[phaedra1106uk]

Viht don't list any loads for bullets above 156gr, have you looked at 140gr? you can get Noslers from Germany for around £270/1000

 

http://www.vihtavuori.com/en/reloading-data/rifle-reloading/6-5---284-norma.html

[BlueBoy69]

Viht don't list any loads for bullets above 156gr, have you looked at 140gr? you can get Noslers from Germany for around £270/1000

 

http://www.vihtavuori.com/en/reloading-data/rifle-reloading/6-5---284-norma.html

 

He's after data for the 7 mm/.284" calibre .284 Winchester as far as I can tell, not the 6.5-284 Norma.

 

PS I've looked though my old Vihtavuori manuals (back to 1992) and they've never listed the cartridge. If someone's got one older manual, it might have data on the .284 Win in there?

[ezmobile]

Hello dorg. I recently converted my target rifle to an F class rig just using a swap barrel chambered for .284 win.

When I was looking for a load for this Laurie Holland kindly suggested I should try N165 due to its cool burn, giving a much longer barrel life.

I worked up a load to 55.5 grains which delivers 2800 fps (suggested by Mik Mak). This is using the super slippery Sierra MK 183 grain bullets, which need at least a 1:8 twist. So far this combination has worked very well for me when the bullets are sat either just touching / fractionaly off the rifling, say a 5 or 10 thou jump.

Rifle info is; Bartlien heavy profile barrel, 34 ins long with a 1:8 twist. Paramount action (oldie but a goodie) Gemini stock and a Vortex Golden Eagle scope.

All the best

[gbal]

(dorg). The best source for loads will tend to be from current fclass/similar or stalkers using the 284w (so called 'straight 284'-as opposed to the kinky Shehane etc. :-)

 

As per ezmobile,for example in above post ,based on Laurie's recommendations.

 

Reloading manuals are unlikely tto list the 294w as it was a failed cartridge in the 88/100 Winchester rifles-introduced in 1963.Good combos,just what hunters said they wanted,but didn't buy.IT's close to the 280rem,and even in a fewb/a didn't sell.

But a good cartidge,rescued from impending obsolescence by wildcatters and target shooters,who saw it's potential in short actions-the 6.5-284 became a standard long range number,performance with shootability in acceptable weight rifles. Then the 'straight' 284 become more popular inlast ten years. A very fine hill stalking cartridge too,but low sales made it ulikely to be widely promoted in reloading manuals,but is seeing increased use (it's a good short 280/7mm !)

 

The better news is that there is plenty of current relevant UK user data-best work up,of course-and see Accurate Shooter for US oriented competition loads-and of course,excellent 7mm target bullets-Bergers....and work down in price!!

 

gbal

[Laurie]

As George (gbal) says, forget load manuals for the 284 Win unless you're loading it for a short-action rifle for sporting use and limiting bullets to 140/150gn. Winchester introduced the cartridge in the 60s to provide .30-06 equivalent 'hunting' performance in short-action rifles, but whose 2.800" SAAMI COAL severely limited bullet options. It failed in that role, but was picked up at the end of the last century by US long-range beanfield and similar deerhunters who started to use 7mm match bullets in muscular cartridges. I remember reading an article in an American magazine from this period about the revival of the 284 unofficially rechristened '284LT', the LT being Long Throat and loaded with 175s to 3.2-3.3" COALs and at very high pressures for long-action custom built rifles.

 

F-Class shooters rediscovered the benefits of the 284 in its 'LT' form as well as the slightly 'improved' case Shehane form yet more recently, and a very good choice it is.

 

I use the old 175gn Sierra MK and the newer but much fussier 180gn version in the 'straight 284' with an 8-twist Bartlein and the 180gn Scenar in the Shehane version in a 9-twist Benchmark. In both rifles I load only N165 (plus N160 with 160gn Sierra TMKs in the straight version for occasional short-range match use) and have been very satisfied with the results to date.

 

In the 'straight' version, start at around 53gn and work up from there. With the 175gn SMK, I got a really good shooting load with 55.5gn N165 at what will be relatively (by F-Class standards) modest pressures and MVs, (~2,825 fps) and my 180gn SMK loading is a bit 'hotter' at 57gn and 2,857 fps. The latter is actually warmer than I want or need having risen from 2,830 fps in a newly run-in barrel, so started redevelopment last year with a view to getting a good shooting load at 2,800 fps or just below. 54.9 looked promising, but I haven't followed it up to date or chronographed it yet. 57gn works fine with my Bartlein, but I have seen people get pressure problems with this charge weight with 180gn Bergers in other makes of barrel and/or chamber freebores, so don't assume you'll get there, especially as I have a gut feeling the Scenar develops slightly higher pressures than same weight Bergers or Sierras.

 

That's necked-up, neck-turned, de-doughnuted Lapua 6.5-284 cases and mild Russian Murom KVB-7 or KVB-7M primers. (Although the KVB-7M is a 'magnum' primer, my (old) lot has proven 'milder' than many makes of standard LR primer, and I found it gives slightly lower ES/SD values than the standard Murom model.) I jump the tangent ogive 175 SMKs and seat the 180gn SMK and Scenar both of which have rather aggressive secant ogive forms around 15 thou' 'in' - not 'jammed', just far enough to just feel a little extra resistance on bolt closure. Despite never having rechecked this on either rifle, the original COALs continue to shoot as well as ever at round counts of 1,570 for the 'straight 284' and a little over 1,000 for the Shehane. (7mmWSM owners, eat your hearts out!)

 

The 180gn SMKs I use date from before Sierra's big production quality control improvements and factory pointing etc. I got 3,000 for £10/100 such was the lack of appreciation of these bullets. They can shoot very well but need serious BTO batching, meplat trimming and pointing before they will perform consistently at long ranges. From early days with three-quarters to one-MOA elevation at 1,000, they now shoot under half-MOA with 17 or 18 in a 20-round match at a quarter. I expect current examples to do this with less or even no work, but I won't be buying any at current prices for a long time, more likely ever at my age!

 

I only use the Lapua Scenar + N165 in the Shehane and its Benchmark barrel having originally tested 180gn Bergers, Sierras and the Scenar side by side when new. They are excellent bullets, very consistently made, but do benefit from pointing, having rather large diameter meplats as do all Scenar L models and also some recent Berger Hybrids. My Shehane load is mild at not that much above 2,800 fps but does perform very well at long distance having got me a stage 'silver' in a 1,000 yard GB F-Class Association league round and the occasional BR 'Heavy Gun' medal before That Bald-Headed Geordie and Big Al of UKV note started using 6BR 50lb superguns. (The swine! )

 

I did one morning's preliminary testing with Sierra's new 183gn MK last year and this is the most consistent bullet I have ever purchased in measuring terms - BTO measurements and weights, the latter with 90% + within 0.02gn on Acculab scales. (That's 0.02gn, not 0.2gn!) As they are also aggressive secant ogive VLD types, I loaded them the same amount in the lands as the two 180s, but this produced vertical stringing to a greater or lesser degree with every charge weight. Their ES/SD values with N165 were staggering, four rounds with 53.8gn producing a modest 2,722 fps with an ES of 1 fps and a group under a third of an inch. (Yes, 1 fps covering four shots.) American reports say this bullet likes a small jump, so I'll go back at some stage and redo these loads with 0.005" and 0.010" jumps to see if I can tune the verticals out.

 

For club shooting, don't rule the old 175gn SMK out - it is ridiculously easy to 'tune' and is no slouch in form-factor or BC terms. (Litz gives it an excellent G7 form factor value of 0.948, ie it produces 5.2% less drag than the G7 'reference projectile'. That compares to 0.946 for the 180gn Berger VLD and 0.924 for the latest and super-expensive Hybrid.) If of recent manufacture, it will be very well made indeed - Sierra has really upped its standards recently - and will be factory pointed. The 160gn TMK is another good bullet too, and so consistent, you just use them as supplied out of the box. I use it in the 284 for windy days in short to mid-range matches as an alternative to the same bullet in 7mm-08 (LT), but running 100 fps faster from the bigger cartridge.

[Nick 53]

Hello dorg,

Cracking round the straight 284 , I have a mild load for my 7mm . Using Viht 165 with 53 gn , Murom large rifle primers, Scenar L 180 bullet heads. Lapua brass 6.5-284 necked up to 7mm.

 

I have the round loaded 15-20 thou off the lands. 1-9 30" heavy profile barrel.MV 2691 again very modest!

I have been told it's a very modest load, and Laurie and gbal and gun pimp are the guys who know there stuff !

[triggersqueezer]

i did a seat depth scan with lapua bullets once,i went from touching to 70 tho out looking at es. in my experience the 7mm lap is the least seat depth fussy bullet i have ever played with,they just kept on shooting.

[plumber]

im no F class shooter, just fun with my club, I have a 284 straight, my best load is 58-3 N165 with 162 eld , I dont know what the speed is, but it kicked arse with several of my mates 308 AI's at 900 this morning. when moving from 600 to 900, most 308 needed about + 14MOA, i was about +7 -5 according to my scope. The 284 just seems to hold much more energy and speed at distance. great caliber .

[Cienfuegos]

On 26/7/2017 at 2:17 PM, Laurie said:

Como dice George (gbal), olvida los manuales de carga del 284 Win a menos que lo estés cargando para un rifle de acción corta para uso deportivo y limitando las balas a 140 / 150gn. Winchester introdujo el cartucho en los años 60 para proporcionar un rendimiento de "caza" equivalente a 30-30 en los rifles de acción corta, pero cuyo 2.800 "SAAMI COAL limitaba severamente las opciones de bala. Fracasó en ese rol, pero fue recogido al final del juego. del siglo pasado por los beanfield de largo alcance de EE. UU. y los cazadores de ciervos similares que comenzaron a usar balas de 7 mm en cartuchos musculares. Recuerdo haber leído un artículo en una revista estadounidense de este período sobre la reactivación de los 284 '284LT' extraoficialmente. Garganta y cargado con 175s a 3.2-3.3 "COALs y con presiones muy altas para rifles de acción prolongada hechos a la medida.

 

Los tiradores de la Clase F redescubrieron los beneficios del 284 en su forma 'LT', así como el caso ligeramente mejorado 'Shehane' aún más recientemente, y es una muy buena elección.

 

Utilizo el viejo 175gn Sierra MK y la versión de 180gn más nueva pero mucho más frenética en el 'straight 284' con un 8-twist Bartlein y el 180gn Scenar en la versión de Shehane en un 9-torced Benchmark. En ambos rifles cargué solo N165 (más N160 con 160 kg Sierra TMK en la versión recta para el uso ocasional de fósforos de corto alcance) y he estado muy satisfecho con los resultados hasta la fecha.

 

En la versión 'recta', comienza alrededor de 53gn y mejora desde allí. Con 175gn SMK, obtuve una muy buena carga de disparo con 55.5gn N165 en lo que será relativamente (para los estándares F-Class) modestas presiones y MVs (~ 2.825 fps) y mi carga SMK 180gn es un poco más "caliente" en 57gn y 2,857 fps. Este último es en realidad más cálido de lo que deseo o necesita haber subido de 2.830 fps en un barril nuevo, así que comenzó a reurbanizar el año pasado con miras a obtener una buena carga de disparo a 2.800 fps o justo por debajo. 54.9 parecía prometedor, pero no lo he actualizado ni lo he cronometrado todavía. 57gn funciona bien con mi Bartlein, pero he visto personas tener problemas de presión con este peso de carga con Bergers 180gn en otras marcas de barrenos libres de cañón y / o cámara, así que no supongas que llegarás allí,

 

Se trata de estuches Lapua 6.5-284 con cuello vuelto y nudos en el cuello, y cartillas Murom KVB-7 o KVB-7M rusas suaves. (Aunque la KVB-7M es una imprimación 'magnum', mi (antiguo) lote ha demostrado ser 'más suave' que muchas marcas de imprimación LR estándar, y encontré que da valores de ES / SD ligeramente más bajos que el modelo estándar de Murom). salte la tangente ojiva 175 SMK y asiente 180gn SMK y Scenar, los cuales tienen formas ojivas secantes más o menos agresivas alrededor de 15 th 'in' - no 'atascadas', lo suficientemente lejos como para sentir un poco más de resistencia en el cierre del perno. A pesar de no haber vuelto a comprobar esto en ninguno de los rifles, los COAL originales continúan disparando tan bien como nunca en los conteos redondos de 1,570 para los "284 directos" y un poco más de 1,000 para el Shehane. (¡Los dueños de 7 mmWSM se comen los corazones!)

 

Los 180k SMK que uso datan de antes de las grandes mejoras en el control de calidad de la producción de Sierra y el señalamiento de fábrica, etc. Obtuve 3.000 por £ 10/100, tal fue la falta de apreciación de estas balas. Pueden disparar muy bien, pero necesitan una gran cantidad de BTO, procesamiento de meplatos y apuntamiento antes de que funcionen de manera consistente a distancias largas. Desde los primeros días con tres cuartas partes hasta una elevación de MOA en 1,000, ahora disparan a menos de medio MOA con 17 o 18 en un combate a 20 asaltos en un cuarto. Espero que los ejemplos actuales hagan esto con menos o incluso sin trabajo, pero no compraré ninguno a precios corrientes durante mucho tiempo, ¡más probablemente a mi edad!

 

Solo utilizo Lapua Scenar + N165 en el Shehane y su barril Benchmark, ya que originalmente había probado 180gn Bergers, Sierras y Scenar uno al lado del otro cuando era nuevo. Son excelentes balas, muy consistentemente hechas, pero se benefician de señalar, teniendo meplats de diámetro bastante grande como lo hacen todos los modelos de Scenar L y también algunos Berger Hybrids recientes. Mi carga de Shehane es leve a no mucho más de 2.800 fps, pero funciona muy bien a larga distancia, ya que obtuve una etapa "plateada" en una ronda de 1.000 GB de la Asociación Clase F Clase F y ocasionalmente la medalla BR "Heavy Gun" antes de Eso Bald-Headed Geordie y Big Al de UKV note empezaron a usar superbombas 6BR 50lb. (¡El cerdo! )

 

Hice una prueba preliminar de una mañana con el nuevo 183gn MK de Sierra el año pasado y esta es la bala más consistente que he comprado en términos de medición: mediciones y pesos BTO, esta última con 90% + dentro de 0.02gn en las escalas Acculab. (¡Eso es 0.02gn, no 0.2gn!) Como también son agresivos los tipos VLD secantes ojivales, los cargué la misma cantidad en las tierras que los dos 180s, pero esto produjo un enredo vertical en mayor o menor grado con cada peso de carga. Sus valores ES / SD con N165 fueron asombrosos, cuatro rondas con 53.8gn produciendo un moderado 2.722 fps con un ES de 1 fps y un grupo menor de un tercio de pulgada. (Sí, 1 fps que cubre cuatro disparos.) Los informes estadounidenses dicen que a esta bala le gusta un pequeño salto, así que volveré en algún momento y volveré a hacer estas cargas con 0.005 "y 0.010"

 

Para los tiros en clubes, no descartes el viejo 175gn SMK: es ridículamente fácil de "sintonizar" y no se queda atrás en términos de factor de forma o BC. (Litz le da un excelente valor de factor de forma G7 de 0.948, es decir, produce un 5.2% menos de arrastre que el 'proyectil de referencia' G7. Eso se compara con 0.946 para el Bergn VLD de 180gn y 0.924 para el Híbrido más reciente y súper caro). de fabricación reciente, estará muy bien hecho, Sierra ha aumentado realmente sus estándares recientemente y será de fábrica. El 160gn TMK es otra buena bala también, y tan consistente, que simplemente los usa como se suministra de la caja. Lo uso en el 284 para días ventosos en partidos de corto a medio alcance como una alternativa al mismo punto en 7mm-08 (LT), pero corriendo 100 fps más rápido del cartucho más grande.

Excellent contribution, to start in the laboratory. My idea is to fatten my projectiles of 139 (6.5x47l) to fight with the 7 mm and the 300 RWM of my country. So far I have not managed to go from third place ... That's why I want to gain weight at 7 mm 284W or Shehane ... and I had thought about the Scenar 180 or SMK 183, at the 2850 fps node without a lot of barrel wear. How do I want to build a straight barrel of 1.25, and I think I can not go over 30 "because of excess weight, the question is: can I reach the 2850 node with 30" with the 180 scenar or 183 SMK?

Thanks, Teacher and guide ... ;-)

[Laurie]

You might with the Scenar, unlikely with the 183 in the 'straight 284' using cooler burning powders. The bit extra capacity of the Shehane will facilitate getting these velocities.

A fair number of 284 shooters load 180s with Reload Swiss RS60, a 'hot number' and it will usually give 2,850 fps velocities with little trouble, but at the expense of being temperature affected (rarely an issue in the UK, but could well be for you in Spain?) and reduced barrel life. IMR-7828 is another generator of very high MVs in the 284 / Shehane, but is not EU REACH compliant, so will disappear shortly as any existing unsold supplies are depleted.

I've not tried it, but Reload Swiss RS70 may be another good / high MV choice for the 183gn SMK - same comments as RS60, although it will be running at lower pressures in the 2,850 fps node.

[Brillo]

Laurie,

 

I'm told the 183 SMK requires an 8T barrel. Did you find this to be true?

[Laurie]

That (8-twist) is what I have on my 284, so it's not been an issue for me. Believe me, when you take one in your hot and sticky paw, it is a l-o-o-o-o-ng bullet! I seem to remember putting it through the Millers Rule and 1 in 8.5" is optimum (1.5 Sg value), but I'd have to recheck that.

[Cienfuegos]

On 17/11/2017 at 4:34 PM, Laurie said:

Es posible que con el Scenar, poco probable con el 183 en el 'straight 284' con polvos de combustión más fríos. La capacidad extra de bit del Shehane facilitará obtener estas velocidades.

Un buen número de 284 shooters cargan 180s con Reload Swiss RS60, un "número caliente" y generalmente da velocidades de 2.850 fps con pocos problemas, pero a costa de verse afectado por la temperatura (raramente un problema en el Reino Unido, pero bien podría ser para ti en España?) y la reducción de la vida del barril. IMR-7828 es otro generador de VM muy altas en el 284 / Shehane, pero no cumple con EU REACH, por lo que desaparecerá en breve a medida que se agoten los suministros no vendidos.

No lo he probado, pero Reload Swiss RS70 puede ser otra buena / alta elección de MV para el 183gn SMK, los mismos comentarios que RS60, aunque funcionará a presiones más bajas en el nodo de 2.850 fps.

Then in 30 "I am obliged to the Shehane, or 32" for the 284 W. As for the temperature of the RS60 in Spain, it is a fact to be taken into account. But for the moment long distance competitions are held in the north (Galicia) and it is rare to exceed 30ºC. I take note of the RS70 and the lower pressures.

I want to pamper the maximum pressure to take care of my brass, above all.

Thanks, teacher.