Tough scope and point of aim change.

[sam39]

Good morning,

 

Will up grade my scope at some point.

 

Would like to know first hand experiences of scopes and holding point of aim. Best makes models? is it the usual quality brands or are there any nice surprises from the mid range? Any experiences of poor performance? expensive scopes that should be better........ ones to avoid?

 

I an careful with my set up but do get the general unavoidable knocks and bumps of being in a front seat of a truck and day to day use out and about.

 

The question comes from I have a Nikon pro staff 3-9 x 40 i know it is not a flash scope but the glass is reasonable the reticle very clear good solid mounts all kept at recommended torque settings but it seems over a couple of months it will gain 2 clicks up (0.5in) would this be expected may be even quit reasonable for a scope in this price range?

 

What would be the best?

 

 

Regards

Sam

 

 

[gunner]

I get this in all my rifle's as the ambient temperature humidity rises so does my bullet impacts. Regular zero cheeks sort it and normally no more than 1-2 clicks and back on !. But if just been reloading some summer reduced loads for use as theres deffo more stress on the brass! Keep a close eye on things bud , my scopes care NF Leopold and a Zeiss ATM and they all move slightly over time . Ambient temperature, hot loads and scope internals (when hotter weather) will all have affected things , take care .

[sam39]

OK so may be my cheap scope is not so bad. The other point would be I would still want to regularly check my scope be it cheap or expensive so apart from a bit of confidence not much gained. Regardless I will get a better scope at some point but for other reasons.

 

Thank you for your experience Gunner.

[VarmLR]

Many people concentrate on the scope and then fit mediocre mounts. You can't really judge the zero-holding of a scope without first ensuring that your mounts are up to the job. Budget for decent mounts if you're considering a scope change. It does make a difference. I swapped some (not inexpensive) mounts on my DMR scope for some Tier One mounts, and the scope not only holds zero better but my groups tightened up too.

[Chris-NZ]

Yep, too many people blame the scope when it's their budget mounting system that lets them down.

[sam39]

Great chaps and thanks for that but the mounts are superior to the scope and seem heavy well made and solid. Set evenly with a torque wrench . But I noticed you have had issues with good mounts also. So are trier 1 the best grove type mounts on the market.

[Vortex]

Got tier1 on my vortex HD gen2, never had a problem with mounts or scope.

[hunter686]

This seems pretty legit:

[sam39]

interesting and thanks for any feed back

 

Please see original post as im not sure I actual have a problem more a question as what is normal for point of aim change and i think it may have been answered by gunner in the first post?.

 

My rifle use would be say 20 times in and out the cabinet, mod on/off, a month. vermin control.

 

This is how i test. 100 yard (fairly wind protected) range at the back of my house at least once a month and shot 5 3 shot groups letting things cool best i can as sporting barrel. It takes longer to cool the further i get though my 5 x 3 as it seems to retain heat so the last 3 i will have to hold on 15 to 20 min!

 

Shoot of Bi pod with rear bag on a bench. windage never changes but not unusual to change elevation 2 clicks this could be in the realms of tolerance taking into account it is in my truck a bit, mod gets screwed on and off each time gun is stored.

 

I would also like to know if i change the scope what are the very best mounts to go for on a picatinny rail? Tier 1 ha been mentioned. does it depend on the scope manufacturer ie so some offer the best mounting options? but i should may be start a new post for this / look at some old ones.

[hunter686]

interesting and thanks for any feed back

 

Please see original post as im not sure I actual have a problem more a question as what is normal for point of aim change and i think it may have been answered by gunner in the first post?.

 

My rifle use would be say 20 times in and out the cabinet, mod on/off, a month. vermin control.

 

This is how i test. 100 yard (fairly wind protected) range at the back of my house at least once a month and shot 5 3 shot groups letting things cool best i can as sporting barrel. It takes longer to cool the further i get though my 5 x 3 as it seems to retain heat so the last 3 i will have to hold on 15 to 20 min!

 

Shoot of Bi pod with rear bag on a bench. windage never changes but not unusual to change elevation 2 clicks this could be in the realms of tolerance taking into account it is in my truck a bit, mod gets screwed on and off each time gun is stored.

 

I would also like to know if i change the scope what are the very best mounts to go for on a picatinny rail? Tier 1 ha been mentioned. does it depend on the scope manufacturer ie so some offer the best mounting options? but i should may be start a new post for this / look at some old ones.

 

My scope used to change zero everytime I pulled it out the case. Once I changed the mounts from Sportsmatch to NF I havn't touched it in about two years. That's includes me dropping the rifle down a kill. Didn't budge! Get some new mounts Tier one, NF, Leopold, Spuhr,Warne just to name a few. Try them out! If your problem is still there try another scope. Start with the cheapest fix and work you way up. Checking the screws is a pretty cheap fix so I always start there. P.s I'm going to be selling some medium NF mounts soon. If you are interested you can have first dibs.

Atb

[sam39]

hunter 686 sounds like you have solved your problem and i guess now have mega confidence in the set up as i presume it was still bang on after dropping down a hill. I also dropped my set up once from 4ft onto a grass field and POI went up over 1.5 Ft. (windage stayed bang on)

 

My scope is not changing much day to day only 2 clicks. To get to a point were you say your scope never changes (lets say at 100 yards) presume you have completed regular testing in different conditions............ very hot days cold days from a good shooting platform ?

[ejg223]

Kaps Germany make very good optics at mid price.

I have several rifles fitted since almost ten years with cheap (Sun optics 6 USD) mounts and never had a problem. I have a set of 34mm Badger steel tactical mounts where the bottom claw bent open and the scope was not tight, also had a few problems with Optiloks. If a mount is faulty... they won't work, cheap or expensive. Normally you will be better off with higher quality mounts such as Recknagel but it is no guarantee.

edi

[gbal]

sam, IT's probable that gunner has given the likliest explanation. AS air temperature increases,so doers MV,and that tends to raise point of impact. We are not talking inches here,in UK,but enough to give pause to winter reloaded max velocity rounds being shot in high summer temperatures-long range competitors are aware/careful about this (more extreme-sme USranges-might even try to keep ammo in a cool bog etc...

The aother standard issue is simple rifle temperature increase-that will happen in sunshine too,but mainly from firing-chamber and barrrel get measurably hotter aand this transfers to the cartridge-a bitwarmer anyhow-and dipsreses shots a little,mainly in elevation.

Your cool barrel routine wil minimise this,but it's unlikely to be perfect (nor does it really need to be-but most field shots are taaken with a relatively non heated barrel.

You don't mention cartridge-more powder means more heat,though the sporter barrel will also heat up far more than a varmint/heavy barrel-enough to make a diffence maybe over even aa small number of shots. 'Two clicks' mean half an inch of elevation-with 1/4 moaclicks -this is about the ball park you'd expect with rifle/ammo heating up with warmer days/3 shots in a sporter barrel. Max loads will have more heating effect than mild loads too-MV/powder weight is best guide.

I appreciate you are not testing definitively,but 5 or more shots would be a better test of the heating explanation-as well as a more reliable 'group' sze to se if POI has really changed.You could also note whether POI does climb/change as shots increase,as temperature rises.

Basically,it may also be 'cold bore ' effect-many rifles shoot a liitle 'off' first shot-and that may also be 'clean/foued bore-competition shooters deliberately fire a few blow off shots to get the barrel 'standard fouled',so more consistent....

Overall,worth a check up-as you do- try more shots together though....it does not seem a real issue (2clicks) but something to be aware of.

You should get advice on mounts-basic guidance is do not scrimp on the mounts-your choice may be limited a bit by rifle/rail fitted if any etc...Tikka/Sako are rather well served by the excellent Optilock system;you don't need a full 'tacticool' set up,but might fancy such...on a sporter weight can be an issue,and of course get the right height. Tier one are sound,but then Leupolds don't often break either...nor Burris...and so on-get a big name set,though -not some cheaper set.You simply must have justified confidence in your scope mounting. (As in your OP-scope too,of course-but that need not mean £ks).It's very unlikely heating up will change your scope,though of course,bumping around may do so-if bumpy,try a cushion of foam rubber to rest the stock on. Good shooting.

 

gbal

[hunter686]

hunter 686 sounds like you have solved your problem and i guess now have mega confidence in the set up as i presume it was still bang on after dropping down a hill. I also dropped my set up once from 4ft onto a grass field and POI went up over 1.5 Ft. (windage stayed bang on)

 

My scope is not changing much day to day only 2 clicks. To get to a point were you say your scope never changes (lets say at 100 yards) presume you have completed regular testing in different conditions............ very hot days cold days from a good shooting platform ?

 

I shoot all year round so everything from +30 - 0 Oc 9/10 shooting in the prone. You will get small amounts of vertical at either ends of these temps but thats just ballistics. @10 it will always be bang on. This scope is on my .204 so it's my up to 400er for crows so i need it to stay spot in. Also, i have put the scope and it on my .270 (mounts and all) for a couple of trips and the zero still remained after i put it back on on the .204.

 

Just so we are on the same page bang on for me would be a 15/16 half inch dot drill at 100 yards

[sam39]

Perfect and thanks to you all that is all i need to know for now.

 

round is 223

1/4 MOA / click