CameronWilson Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 Seems like there have been a large number of S&B PMIIs up for sale recently – is there a new 'wonder scope' on the market? IOR? Kahles? Nightforce? Vortex? Cam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazzarM1 Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 Interested in the answer..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VarmLR Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 A little provocative I know, but having never looked through one, is it because people buy them and find they're over-rated for the price? (genuine question). They seem to tick all the boxes, but I've also noticed quite a few up for sale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tikkat3rob Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 I'm a current seller of a s&b and for me its just a upgrade to mil and new ret and ffp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
srvet Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 I have a few PMII and would buy more if I could! They are fantastic IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brown dog Posted June 22, 2017 Report Share Posted June 22, 2017 Seems like there have been a large number of S&B PMIIs up for sale recently – is there a new 'wonder scope' on the market? IOR? Kahles? Nightforce? Vortex? Cam. Yup, noticed that too and been having the same thought. Be interesting to hear whether there's a reason, or it's simply coincidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeroz Posted June 22, 2017 Report Share Posted June 22, 2017 Have you ever notice that FFP mil/mil get snapped up straight away, whilst SFP moa take a lot longer to sell. l have a PM 2 which I've had for 10 years. I love it and have no plans on upgrading & or selling it. I also have an IOR Recon which whilst being a great scope and was excellent VFM, however I prefer the PM2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cumbrian 1 Posted June 22, 2017 Report Share Posted June 22, 2017 Have you ever notice that FFP mil/mil get snapped up straight away, whilst SFP moa take a lot longer to sell. l have a PM 2 which I've had for 10 years. I love it and have no plans on upgrading & or selling it. I also have an IOR Recon which whilst being a great scope and was excellent VFM, however I prefer the PM2. I agree it's the SFP and/or MOA that are the slowest to move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tikka4Sika Posted June 22, 2017 Report Share Posted June 22, 2017 Maybe MOD procurement no longer want anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
srvet Posted June 23, 2017 Report Share Posted June 23, 2017 The choice between FFP and SFP is down to application and more importantly how tacticool you want to be. I have a SFP PMII on my very heavy 6.5x47 and the ability to maintain a thin reticle at high magnification is really helpful when shooting tiny groups. I don't use the Mil-Dot for ranging other than measuring corrections of point of impact which I can do by zooming to 25x before milling the correction. My reticle on the FFP PMIi scope sitting on my red deer rifle tends to obscure far more of the target and seems a little less precise. For stalking this is irrelevant but for load testing and target work it does make a noticeable difference. If you are shooting steel where there is some margin for error or constantly shooting at variable ranges then FFP makes perfect sense but if you shoot for precision at determined distances then SFP makes an awful lot of sense. What doesn't stack up at all is where the reticle and turrets have different units e.g. a Mil-Dot ret with MOA turrets or vice versa. I have one such scope (MOA based Bryant reticle with mil turrets) and it does lose functionality of the scope. Anyone know what a reticle change costs?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Putter Posted June 23, 2017 Report Share Posted June 23, 2017 I have mine changed in a PM2 about 5 years ago for a H59 reticle. It was over £300 but worth every penny!!!! I disagree slightly with your comment on the SFP being not as good as the FFP for precise shooting. If you look at the H59 reticle in a FFP scope, it has an open crosshair in the centre of the crosshair with a tiny dot in the middle. The tiny dot gives you the ability to do VERY accurate shot placements. This is an under rated reticle that not many people are aware of and a whole lot more versitle with multiple aprications all in one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodder Posted June 27, 2017 Report Share Posted June 27, 2017 I recently picked up an as new 12-50 PM2. Have to say I'm absolutely chuffed with it. It's big and heavy and the fov leaves a little to be desired but optically it's fantastic and the image only starts to darken above about 40x mag. It blows my Swaro 6-30x50 into the weeds and I'd happily get another. Can't comment on the 5-25 model but I'm sure it's just as good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodder Posted June 27, 2017 Report Share Posted June 27, 2017 I recently picked up an as new 12-50 PM2. Have to say I'm absolutely chuffed with it. It's big and heavy and the fov leaves a little to be desired but optically it's fantastic and the image only starts to darken above about 40x mag. It blows my Swaro 6-30x50 into the weeds and I'd happily get another. Can't comment on the 5-25 model but I'm sure it's just as good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave thorniley Posted June 27, 2017 Report Share Posted June 27, 2017 I agree with srvet all the way, im fed up of people running down sfp scopes its all down to how you use them, my scopes are sfp and wouldn't swap them, ive put thousands of rounds down range and hunting and never had a problem with them. dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJR Posted June 27, 2017 Report Share Posted June 27, 2017 I wouldn't of expected you would have any problem putting rounds down range with any PMII. It is down to application but sfp with mismatched reticle and turrets is simply making hard work for yourself on anything other than known distance target shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terryh Posted June 28, 2017 Report Share Posted June 28, 2017 Back to the root of the OP i.e apparent glut of S&B scopes on the market. Lots of reasons (perhaps?), Times are hard and folks need the money? Should not be anything to do with quality or optics etc, If mismatch ret to adjustment then the seller has realised 'WTF did I buy that combination for?' (Or look at it another way, if you bought a 1950's British car you do not go and buy a metric socket set! . ) The availability of alternate brands - at one point S&B were 'it' but there are equivalents now - caveat 'if' you eyes prefer the other brands coatings over the S&B's? Some wanted a more compact scope, S&B's are chuncky (but not to IOR degree) Owners had an issue with their S&B and recieved poor responce to fixing it? But in the big scale of things does it matter if there are a few floating round, means you can pick up a good scope for your rifle? T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
srvet Posted June 28, 2017 Report Share Posted June 28, 2017 This is true, the more on the market the less the value becomes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gandy Posted July 2, 2017 Report Share Posted July 2, 2017 This may shed a little light on the situation an interesting video. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin Posted July 2, 2017 Report Share Posted July 2, 2017 Interesting slant from a "vloger" Personally, id be looking at a comparison of the PM11 range against equivalent Minox, Khales, Henesolt, Vortex , March, Nightforce (and others) offerings and draw own conclusions from there as to personal priorities. The PM11 range have been prevalent in my own optic "box" for years and remain my "go to scope" for everything except F Class. I dont think id be quick to sell any of the scopes I own and replace with another brand ........but then I form my own opinions from personal use rather than pressure from importers or suppliers pushing for sales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeroz Posted July 2, 2017 Report Share Posted July 2, 2017 I agree with Ronin. Me, I have a 3-16 ×50 PM2 mil/mil FFP P4F single turn. Ive had it 10 years. I've just also purchased an IOR Recon. Both are good scopes but reflecting on both now, if I had to keep one and get rid of the other then the PM2 would be the keeper no hesitation. I love the P4F it is still lovely and fine even on full mag. To my aging eyes it has more natural colour definition than the IOR which I find a little brown in colour definition. On like for like mags the reticule on the IOR is quite thick but still ok, just I prefer the PM2. Finally whilst one buys an IOR knowing it going to be heavy, the smaller 50mm PM2 is a lightweight by comparison. Fortunately however I don't have to choose between the two and will be keeping both for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gandy Posted July 2, 2017 Report Share Posted July 2, 2017 Ronin, I take your point and accept the vlogger can only review what he's given which has some natural gaps. However, whilst people may disagree with his opinion it's a fair point that the competition has now upped their game and there is a lot more competition in the market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terryh Posted July 2, 2017 Report Share Posted July 2, 2017 However, whilst people may disagree with his opinion it's a fair point that the competition has now upped their game and there is a lot more competition in the market. Concur see point 4 of my post T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrCetrizine Posted July 2, 2017 Report Share Posted July 2, 2017 I know at least 5 people who replaced their PMIIs in the last year with a mix of Swarovski X5s and Kahles after trying them at shows. I've never owned a PMII but having tried a friend's, for me my X5i is better for a number of reasons. He agreed and is one of the 5 to replace his. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Putter Posted July 2, 2017 Report Share Posted July 2, 2017 Guys, the S&B is an extremely rugged and reliable scope. If the other scopes were better, forces from around the world would have used something else. The accuracy of the turrets are second to none and bear in mind not so long ago sniping world records were broken with S&B PMIIs. Although the glass might not be the best out there, no one can knock the quality. A S&B will last you a lifetime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terryh Posted July 2, 2017 Report Share Posted July 2, 2017 Putter, Do not think anyone is knocking S&B's, they are great scopes. Think what folks are saying is they are not the king of scopes, just a very good top quality one. Re. Armed forces using them, true they do, but just because an army buys them does not make them 'it' , military contracts are given for different reasons, we are (predominantly) not military i.e. do not have to use what's issued, so we can choose with our own cash/eyes/needs (delete as necessary) Would I have a S&B - yes, would I choose an S&B, probably not (FYI I've had a few S&B's previously and they were great). T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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