First batch done, but some questions have arisen.

[Spencer54]

So I've completed my first fifty rounds, fairly happy after some hiccups.

Now I have 49 rounds all looking sparkly - one got mangled and has been parked until I decide what to do.

 

Anyway...

 

When seating the bullet to the line it checked out to over the 2.800 at about 2.820 roughly.

I measured this against some factory rounds I have and they were all 2.790 roughly.

So I pushed the bullets into the case until they were 2.795ish

 

First one though went in a bit more 2.775 does this one need to be pulled?

How critical is the seating depth?

 

Also if you don't have a tumbler how can you clean cases easily?

 

As an aside do you weigh every single charge the powder thrower puts out?

I did a weight check after every five rounds.

Do I need to pull the lot and start again?

 

Thanks

[bradders]

Bullets, namely HPBT type ones are never the same length.As long as they fit your mag then it isn't critical.

 

I find it best to load about 20 or so, measure them and adjust the longest to the length you want, then run them all back through the seating die.

 

The seating die seats them off the ogive and not the tip, so expect some variance.

I have seen up to .030" with SMKs

[The Gun Pimp]

Do you weigh every single powder-charge?

 

Depends on what you want to hit - if it's something the size of a donkey, don't bother - if it's your last bullet-hole, you'd better do.

[Spencer54]

How much of a variance do you normally see with .25 of a grain either way?

[bradders]

How much of a variance do you normally see with .25 of a grain either way?

.25 either way is 1/2 or .5gn overall, you need to be doing much better than that....although you'll probably still hit that poor unfortunate donkey

[Spencer54]

So the powder thrower, is that used to get close, and then the trickier to get it spot on and each charge needs to be exact to within what?

 

I didn't get one with the kit I bought, looks like I'm pulling the lot.

[gbal]

Note Bradders points-.25g (plus or minus) is way too inconsistent;bullet length does vary,considerably between brands/bullet design( with hunting bullets often shorter than out and out match types-esp VLDs),but also within the3 same box,as Bradders says.

 

If the RCBS Supreme kit has no powder scale,you cannot check the powder throw from (I assume) the green Powder Measure thrower (by volume-scales of course weigh the charge). The RCBS Thrower should be accurate to about .1g ...but that means .1 +/- consistency between throws...assuming a fairly consistent throw motion by you,and decent metering powder....did you go for V140 as advised....

You don't either say what your target weight throw is....if it is from the Vihtavuori guide reloading data for v140 and the bullet weight you are using (not given) then hopefully you are throwing something well under the max...at least .5 g....so even your +2.5 gr overloads should not be excessive...safety,not accuarcy. But something is astray if you relly can't get consistency more like +/_ .2,even allowing for beginner status.

I would not be shooting maybe 2.5g over intended max,especially in brass where the bullets were compressing (previous post).

 

Length- again consistency,seating depth is very fine tuning,which tyou need not be concerned with yet-if ever...factory ammo is all 'one length fits all' (I've SAAMI spec) and works quite well,if quality is OK (I've fine tuning to individual rifles is not possible,nor does it matter for reasonable size targets (you said military reactivesreactives,within 600y-ammo has to be pretty poor not to hit fig 11s).

If your RCBS thrower is sound-then it should not stray outside something like .2g+/_.....look in the loaded case-you get an idea just by where th powder comes too if a load is way off....but a check every five is sensible (checked on ...decent beam scales....which you could/should use anyhow-likely to be. Better than thrower...but poor scales are a liability...check with a few bullets of known weight,which won't be out more than .4 g,roughly.

Good thrower are very consistent with good powder-eg Harrell,but are pricey....Bench Rest shooters often throw by volume,but they know they are .1 consistent (even if .1 on 25shot aggregate means hero to zero in competition!

YOu should be fine-at 'reactive target' level with what you have,carefully used....but you won't approach the intrinsic rifle precision with current inconsistency. (I'd be concerned that an overloaded case with a bit too much seating depth on a load already maybe slightly compressing...well,you get the picture....you will shoot better with a milder mid load anyhow. Cutting edge competitors at 1000y will go for top velocity-but that is a differnt scenarios/gear etc. It will be counterproductive for you at this stage,and removes error margins.

 

OK,check your target powder load is at least .5g under table max for th weight of bullet you are loading.

Check your powder thrower's consistency .25 +/_ is too much

Check each loaded round will go into magazine safely-just measure each for overall length,a tad less than magazine max.

Any doubts...pull the round,and redo

 

Keep asking....but read a bit too-get some better idea of 'tolerances'...as we all had to-and if anyone says you must have meplet adjusted Berger VLD bullets,and a £1000 .01g measuring scales ,and a custom chambering and a £2.5K scop,.make a note for 2 years hence...meanwhile basic consistent ammo (which is really all that good factory stuff is) will do quite nicely-even for really quite small Lilliputian donkeys. :-)

gbal

 

Ps you can throw a bit low,and trickle powder into a good beam scale pan to desired weight,a little slower,but good practice if you have the thrower and scales...simple trickles need not cost more than £15...and I used a cartridge case,and just tapped powder out gently at first.... If your thrower isn't consistent,you will have to...but then need good reliable consistent scales....powder has to be measured with some confidence (.1+/-). Check scales with a known weight too-if possible a weight around the target powder weight,where it matters...a single kernel is about .025g,and a good beam will get to 8 kernels quite consistently,half that for some- so keep some perspective...you need not be trickling in many....even if you go this route....but the criterion is safety...+.5g above max,trickled in is exact,but not safe!

[The Gun Pimp]

How much of a variance do you normally see with .25 of a grain either way?

100 yds - very little. 1000 yards - could be significant. A chronograph is the instrument which will tell you.

[Spencer54]

Ahh ok so I'm learning.

 

So no N140 was available so after a rethink for th first go we settled on IMR 4895.

I used the lowest setting in the book at 40.5gr.

 

This was for a 150gr FMJ PPU bullet.

 

The scales were RCBS ones that came in the kit, and ever paranoid I double checked against a digital scale that used Grams and it came out at roughly 2.6g on that so I knew I was there and not set the scales wrong.

 

Some of the throws from the measure appear to be dead on some had the arrow just a tiny bit over, I checked by moving the fine slider. I guesstimated the odd one being .25 gr off - but I don't know how I measure that fine.

 

Sometimes the throw of the scale appear to shear a grain and I checked those again but they seemed the same.

 

Not sure what to do from here, I should probably park these and get them pulled at a later date and start again.

[Chanonry]

Easy clean ? - lee case trimmer lock stud thingy in a rechargeable power drill chuck, insert case, trim - then whizz + rub up and down with a bit of steel wool.

 

No shite to clean out of case either

[gbal]

Spencer,sorry g and g and gr and gr got muddled -or .25 was really .025-see otherwise duplicate post that follows.

IF 40.5 grains was Mildish in the tables,fine - and you are estimating a tad off perfect in the pointer as .25 grain- - I was a bit thrown by how you could measure with such finesse...without a more accurate scale....load is safe,it seems and mild;and OK for consistency-as I suggested +/- .1grain is quite good,certainly for now-and indeed for most purposes...short of competitive 1000y shooting and even then ,not at fig 11 reactivesreactives with a 308.

 

And .1 grain consistency/accuracy is about what a good beam scale should give-and a good volume thrower should dispense.

So all good,it seems. Should not be any compression either. Suggestions for bullet seating/length stand.

GIven safe pressures (no over max loads) a small powder variation of the order of +/-.1 grain will not be detectable on short range targets,especially given all the other dispersing factors. And it's quite an expensive upgrade usually to get to 'kernel consistency' -if it's not "needed".

g

[gbal]

Spencer,sorry g and g and gr and gr got muddled -maybe a 'guestimated .25" was more likely '.025"-four .025 grain kernels will clearly move a decent beam scale (quoted .1 accuracy) and good scales might twitch even with one (.025) so .25 seemed a lot esp " either way".

IF 40.5 grains was Mildish in the tables,fine - and you are estimating a tad off perfect in the pointer as .25 grain- - I was a bit thrown by how you could measure with such finesse...without a more accurate scale....load is safe,it seems and mild;and OK for consistency-as I suggested +/- .1grain is quite good,certainly for now-and indeed for most purposes...short of competitive 1000y shooting and even then ,not at fig 11 reactivesreactives with a 308.

 

.1 grain consistency/accuracy is about what a good beam scale should give-and a good volume thrower should dispense,though as said above,you may well see UN unmeasurable twitch with a grain...best not "guestimate"-though it's only recently that individual kermels were actually weighed (they differ!)

So all good,it seems. Should not be any compression either. Suggestions for bullet seating/length stand.

GIven safe pressures (no over max loads) a small powder variation of the order of +/-.1 grain will not be detectable on short range targets,especially given all the other dispersing factors. And it's quite an expensive upgrade usually to get to 'kernel consistency' -if it's not "needed".

g

[Spencer54]

These are first runs and for plinking at military ranges.

 

Once I've got it nailed I'll attempt some higher quality rounds with better cases and bullets.

 

One thing I have noticed this far is that the Norma brass seemed nicer to work with than the PPU I recycled.

[Spencer54]

Just for my brain .25 of a grain is what I'm on about.

So if I'm out by that I'm hitting cows sized objects somewhere at 600 yards?

Or .25 grams is the wayward one - that would put me by my maths at roughly 4 grains out.

 

That would be the difference between mild and wild in my book.

 

Is that right?

[MrCetrizine]

0.25 grains is a big difference and can mean the difference between a 0.5 inch group and a 1.5 inch group.

 

0.25 grammes is huge and could mean the difference between safe and losing body parts.

 

Most people work to 0.1 grains tolerance but only because that's the accuracy of the majority of scales. If we all had scales that measured to 0.0000001 grains, we'd probably do that.

[snakeman]

0.25 grains is a big difference and can mean the difference between a 0.5 inch group and a 1.5 inch group.

 

0.25 grammes is huge and could mean the difference between safe and losing body parts.

 

Most people work to 0.1 grains tolerance but only because that's the accuracy of the majority of scales. If we all had scales that measured to 0.0000001 grains, we'd probably do that.

 

+ 1

 

And it would be prudent to use a powder trickler for every cartridge you load. Personally I have never and, would never trust the accuracy of a powder throw, even it was made by NASA. The most significant error is not made by the powder throw in itself but by the operator, who perceives and hopes they have repeated their 'throw-motion' exactly the same as all the previous throws - you have,really?..every time?

 

By trickling powder into every cartridge I load I am reassured that every round is weighed exactly how I meant it to be. ...More time consuming, but ultimately far more effective

 

ATB

[Spencer54]

OK that makes perfect sense - and I'll get a trickler at the earliest opportunity.

[gbal]

OK that makes perfect sense - and I'll get a trickler at the earliest opportunity.

As MrC (well..01) and Snakeman-a tad slower with moderate equipment-but speed and better decimals

means £lotsa.

Keep perspective too-the maker of the best expensive trickler points out that sub kernel precision (.025grain) means about 1mm at 1000yards (and of course pro rata less at shorter range)...wheras a 1mph wind error reading (And that is very good) means a ten inch error at 1000y....which is 250 mm. One kernel is about 1 fps MV..

-to put some figures on Gun PImp's point above.

Trickle is very good for peace of mind assurance and insurance too,-but +/- .1 consistency is good,and it's noticeable dispersion/not on target that matters-and -lower SD of MV isn't quite the same thing...it won't matter much on small donkeys (how did they get loose here) or moa size targets.

Simple 'maths' ...what hit rate change will .5mm less make to a moa (125mm) target at 500y? Compared to the raft of not precisely knowable larger dispersers... Load up and shoot -once your groups are consistently sub half moa, consider upgrades all round? :-)

g

[tackb]

as long as your loads are safe I'd shoot them and see if the accuracy meets your personal expectations?

[Spencer54]

How petrified should I be firing my first ever home loads...

 

At this point I feel like I've created 49 bombs and trying to work out where it's best to test these beauties.

[bradders]

Everything you need to know is here......

 

http://ukvarminting.com/forums/topic/37680-reloading-training/

[Chanonry]

OK that makes perfect sense - and I'll get a trickler at the earliest opportunity.

 

I used to 'trickle' out of an old film canister. RFD who sold me my first reloading set up told me to find one.

 

Don't need all the flash gear, just need the end result. I did eventually buy an electronic one but only when my volume went up.

[Spencer54]

So I think I've made a slight mistake, I got home last night and decided to double check the length and pull the one I knew was was a taddeeper in bullet depth and found three that were out by a tiny amount compared to the others.

 

I ended up with three random pulled and powder checked - they were all exactly 40.5 grains.

Looking at the scales again and working out what I thought was my error margin was in fact + or - .1 of a grain so an overall variance of .2 at a maximum:

In

I rebuilt the four rounds and used the trickler method using an old .303 case, bullets were then pressed long and the incrementally nudged down to 2.795.

 

Feel a lot better about the whole thing - so thanks guys for all the assistance, I appreciate it!

[Spencer54]

Just an update the first 20 rounds were shot off this weekend and were excellent - it was only at 300 yards at fig 11 knock downs, but no dramas.

 

Thanks for all your advise I feel way more confident!

[VarmLR]

I'd be going back to basics to begin with in your shoes and not getting too wrapped up in some of the more obscure detail.

 

Start with what measuring kit and precision you require (not "think" you require, but actually do require). As a minimum, a bullet comparator of some description, vernier gauge, preferably a headspace comparator gauge (Hornady L-N-L is the one I'd recommend) and read something like the ABC of reloading or the Richard Lee reloading manual.

 

Start and ends loads are guidelines and there for a reason. Loading less than minimum recommended can be as dangerous as over-loading. Accuracy loads generally I've found lay somewhere between 50 and 75% max recommended although with some rounds, it has been less than that.

 

Start by shooting a range of charges until you start to get pressure signs, then back off at least half to one whole grain. Set that as your max safe load. Little point in shooting hotter as it just increases throat erosion and unless you shoot competition, and it's just for plinking, hot loads are pointless. Work out what velocity you need for the range you'e shooting based on the bullet BC, and load until you achieve at least that velocity (or change bullet/powder accordingly).

 

Once you have your min and max charges figured out, shoot a load ladder. A ladder test is simply where you shoot a cluster of shots at each given charge, to the same point of aim on a target and see where most fall, discarding those that fall wildly either side of the majority of clusters. Vertical spread at this juncture is to be expected with varying charge weights. Horizontal spreads you don't really want. Re-zero to the centre of where most clusters on the vertical spread fall.

 

Re-shoot those charge weights in groups of 3 to 5 (5 better) where they previously fell in the same vertical spread. You will note several load increments which are close together (eg perhaps .2 to .4 of a grain different either side of the tightest group). Pick the tightest group from that exercise. This is your accuracy load falling on a harmonic node.

 

Next, load a new batch to that load. This time pay strict attention to consistency. Seat using the comparator tool to check. Many bullets vary between base to ogive in manufacturing, some by quite a bit, but for pressure and harmonic variation, most tend to load with a consistent ogive to lands jump, which is why a bullet seating comparator is used. If loading to magazine length (2.795 or 2.800) in .308, then just pick a bullet which has a regularised meplat and use that to set your COAL to the tip of the bullet, check that with a comparator, and use that comparator setting to load all the rest. No messing, job done.

 

Full length re-size everything. Ensure each is trimmed to the same length in the range 2.005 to 2.008 as a guide for .308.

 

Powder throwers, unless you invest in a benchrest standard one (expensive) are not accurate enough on their own to truust , even the excellent little Lee thrower. Buy a tricker, throw under and trickle to get you to within at least .1 of a grain of your chosen load as a discipline.

 

I'd advise either a Lyman Turbo tumbler to start with or for less money an ultrasonic cleaner capable of holding about half a litre min. You need to get your cases clean on the inside to avoid excessive wear to your re-sizing dies and on the outside, clean enough to inspect for damage.

 

Start shooting them, learn as you go and above all, enjoy.