Malinois Posted May 4, 2017 Report Share Posted May 4, 2017 Hi, I was talking to a gamekeeper this afternoon who wants me to help him with his hare control. He uses a 17 Hornet which he loves but I am changing all my rifles to left hand and of course I am limited. One of the reasons he likes his hornet is that with a head shot he is not blowing the head off the hare so they still look presentable and obviously weigh more when he takes them to the game dealer who purchases on weight. He did use a .204 but it was destroying the heads. If I were to load a non ballistic tip round for my 223 which would be suitable for maintaining the heads of hares and use on foxes what bullet would people recommend? Thanks Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furyan Posted May 4, 2017 Report Share Posted May 4, 2017 .22 lr mini mags .22 lr cci stingers ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pork chop Posted May 4, 2017 Report Share Posted May 4, 2017 If your 223 has the right twist a smk would be good on hares but not so much on fox ,may be try a soft point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malinois Posted May 4, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 4, 2017 I was thinking soft or hollow point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcampbellsmith Posted May 4, 2017 Report Share Posted May 4, 2017 Worth a look at this too https://basc.org.uk/cop/brown-hares/ Regards JCS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malinois Posted May 4, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 4, 2017 Worth a look at this too https://basc.org.uk/cop/brown-hares/ Regards JCS Strange, it doesn't say what to do if the police in the area where you shoot don't know the poaching laws and as a result you have teams of our travelling friends racing around your turf fields after the hares. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
activeviii Posted May 7, 2017 Report Share Posted May 7, 2017 Strange, it doesn't say what to do if the police in the area where you shoot don't know the poaching laws and as a result you have teams of our travelling friends racing around your turf fields after the hares. Ian 222 or 223 with a slow bullet or even a wmr will do nicely. just remember that there is a season for the brown hare to get get caught out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banus02 Posted May 7, 2017 Report Share Posted May 7, 2017 223rem bullet i use 69gr and it works or if you have one the 17hmr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boydy47 Posted May 28, 2017 Report Share Posted May 28, 2017 222 or 223 with a slow bullet or even a wmr will do nicely. just remember that there is a season for the brown hare to get get caught out. Only for selling, you can shoot them year around, in England Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alycidon Posted June 19, 2017 Report Share Posted June 19, 2017 Personally I find match type bullets from Berger or Barts can do just as much damage sometimes as a Vmax, certainly a rabbit or hare's head hit with one would not be a pretty site. A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VarmLR Posted June 23, 2017 Report Share Posted June 23, 2017 55gr SP from Sierra would do the trick nicely. All bullets will damage the head. The extent obviously depends on the frangibility of the design and the velocity. At sensible ranges of up to 150 yards, I'd be loading a 55 SP slowish, ie at the lower end of the load table towards min load, but looking for an accurate load. I use a load of around 23gr N130 in my .223 for ground game with the SP bullets. It isn't legal to shoot Hare (or any other game) with non-expanding bullets. Just saying... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boydy47 Posted June 24, 2017 Report Share Posted June 24, 2017 If your 223 has the right twist a smk would be good on hares but not so much on fox ,may be try a soft point Black hills load 52 gr SMK as a varmint load I believe so this could be a good place to start Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boydy47 Posted June 24, 2017 Report Share Posted June 24, 2017 Duplicate post! I find 40 gr varmageddon HP do far less damage than BT or soft points at 2900 fps, could def relocate this in .223 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxshooter Posted June 26, 2017 Report Share Posted June 26, 2017 .22 Hornet is a good calibre. We used to get a lot of damage with BT bullets but changed to a SP round and things were great. We only used to shoot them late autumn when they made good weight and the dealers were paying well. .17HMR is also a cost effective round Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dellboy Posted June 26, 2017 Report Share Posted June 26, 2017 hornet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
17 Rem Posted June 27, 2017 Report Share Posted June 27, 2017 It isn't legal to shoot Hare (or any other game) with non-expanding bullets. Just saying... You are mistaken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VarmLR Posted June 27, 2017 Report Share Posted June 27, 2017 You are mistaken. Not according to the wording on my FAC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
17 Rem Posted June 27, 2017 Report Share Posted June 27, 2017 Not according to the wording on my FAC Your FAC no doubt says you can use expanding bullets for shooting live quarry. I doubt it says that's the only type of bullet you may use for this purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snakeman Posted June 27, 2017 Report Share Posted June 27, 2017 Varm, .PM please if you would...your in-tray is full Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boydy47 Posted June 27, 2017 Report Share Posted June 27, 2017 Not according to the wording on my FAC Your FAC may limit you to just expanding for quarry, in which cae it would be illegal for YOU, most don't and though I stand to be corrected I believe expanding is only a legal requirement for deer (though possibly seals as these are the only quarry with mini mum calibre / bullet weight /power legislation). Happy to be printed in the direction of the legislation that states otherwise though as I'm still learning!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snakeman Posted June 27, 2017 Report Share Posted June 27, 2017 Your FAC may limit you to just expanding for quarry, in which cae it would be illegal for YOU, most don't and though I stand to be corrected I believe expanding is only a legal requirement for deer (though possibly seals as these are the only quarry with mini mum calibre / bullet weight /power legislation). Happy to be printed in the direction of the legislation that states otherwise though as I'm still learning!! Fox 13.25 Although not set out in legislation, common rifle cartridges considered suitable for the shooting of foxes range from .17 Remington, and .22 Hornet to .22 -250 and .220 Swift, though there is a wide range of suitable similar calibres commercially available. In windy areas, where heavier bullets aid accurate shooting, or if applicants wish to use one rifle for shooting both deer and foxes, they may choose a rifle in 6mm (.243/.244) or 6.5mm (.264) calibre. .22 Rimfires are generally considered as having insufficient muzzle energy to be used against foxes in most circumstances. However, these could be suitable for use at short range by experienced persons, and may be permitted in certain situations such as around farm buildings or paddocks. It is for the operator to ensure that the quarry species are shot at the appropriate range with the appropriate ammunition to achieve a humane kill. Combination shotgun/rifles should have the rifled barrel in a similar calibre. Expanding ammunition should be authorised for shooting foxes. (from 'The Guide on Firearms Licensing Law: 2015') Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boydy47 Posted June 27, 2017 Report Share Posted June 27, 2017 Fox 13.25 Although not set out in legislation, common rifle cartridges considered suitable for the shooting of foxes range from .17 Remington, and .22 Hornet to .22 -250 and .220 Swift, though there is a wide range of suitable similar calibres commercially available. In windy areas, where heavier bullets aid accurate shooting, or if applicants wish to use one rifle for shooting both deer and foxes, they may choose a rifle in 6mm (.243/.244) or 6.5mm (.264) calibre. .22 Rimfires are generally considered as having insufficient muzzle energy to be used against foxes in most circumstances. However, these could be suitable for use at short range by experienced persons, and may be permitted in certain situations such as around farm buildings or paddocks. It is for the operator to ensure that the quarry species are shot at the appropriate range with the appropriate ammunition to achieve a humane kill. Combination shotgun/rifles should have the rifled barrel in a similar calibre. Expanding ammunition should be authorised for shooting foxes. (from 'The Guide on Firearms Licensing Law: 2015') When will people stop holding 'The Guide on Firearms Licencing Law' as law!? It's a guide for firearms dept's to administer and interpret the laws including establishing good reason, which you have abstracted for fox and for guidance police to enforce the law. Again this is where the expanding ammunition bit comes in, fox control is considered good reason to be allowed expanding ammo (with latest changes in legislation this may well be removed), it definitely does not say 'fox may only be shot with expanding ammunition' and even if it did it is guidance only not law! The pertinent bit is the opening sentence 'Although not set out in legislation' so there is no minimum legislated calibre for fox, the only animals with legislated minimum calibres are deer and seals. If your certificate is conditioned correctly to allow you to do so then you can shoot fox with whatever calibre you want, provided you do not cause suffering. Also you are quoting guidance that is out of date as it was updated in 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snakeman Posted June 28, 2017 Report Share Posted June 28, 2017 Indeed it is guidance only. Having said that, I wouldn't want to take the chance of trying to justify to the authorities why I might have been driving down the wrong side of a dual carriageway thinking it's ok to do so Just because I don't see a 'no-entry' sign on every road doesn't mean it's not against the law drive on it, or irresponsible, or will indeed get away with it - common sense, perhaps? Expanding ammo on fox, always; be it the 'law', or not - humane and responsible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boydy47 Posted June 28, 2017 Report Share Posted June 28, 2017 Indeed it is guidance only. Having said that, I wouldn't want to take the chance of trying to justify to the authorities why I might have been driving down the wrong side of a dual carriageway thinking it's ok to do so Just because I don't see a 'no-entry' sign on every road doesn't mean it's not against the law drive on it, or irresponsible, or will indeed get away with it - common sense, perhaps? Expanding ammo on fox, always; be it the 'law', or not - humane and responsible Absolutely but where do you draw the line on expanding? I know of at least 2 'target' bullets that give better and more violent expansion out of my 0.223 than a 40 gr blitzking doing 3650 fps at the muzzle, 52 gr amax doing 3350 and 69 gr tmk doing 2900 both produce much more destructive results on rabbits shot at the same range. Conversely the 30 gr berger varmint at 3850 out of the same rifle gave me very little expansion (1/2" round exit) on the one fox and one rabbit that I shot with them, I didn't pursue these any further after chatting to a mate who had exactly the same experience. Both the fox and rabbit dropped stone dead because shot placement was good and they would have done the same with FMJ - indeed reading US forums pelt hunters seem to look for minimal expansion and some use FMJ, all a violently expanding bullet does is buy you more leeway for bad shot placement. This is why I always use expanding for fox! Also to get back to the OP if you refer back to the table in the guidance, ground game i.e. hare and rabbits is considered good reason for FAC air; ground game being what we are talking about, expanding air gun pellets (other than a bit of disruption to the soft lead) are not available so the expanding ammunition only for live quarry idea falls flat on its face! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snakeman Posted June 28, 2017 Report Share Posted June 28, 2017 Absolutely but where do you draw the line on expanding? On a personal level the line was made crystal clear. Maybe because I was shown the 'old-school' way and, listened to the advice of folk who had controlled fox for many years before me and who were kind enough to pass on their knowledge and experience(s) of what was more likely to be consistently effective and, what sometimes was just too much of a risk This advice was given a long time ago and I've never had a problem culling fox with regards to the distinction of ammo used. Expanding = on all live quarry and paper punching...... non-expanding = paper punching Each to their own Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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