Shooting a .223 to 1000yds

[MikeUpton]

Hello.
I am in the process of developing loads for my .223 to shoot at 1000yds. Anyone else out there either doing this or already done it.
I know its a challenge but currently shooting a Marlin XL7 22 inch barrel 1:9 twist successfully to 900yds so far and providing the wind level is favorable.
Mike.

 

I would like to thank you all for your comments and help new to UK Var-minting so the way i reply etc might be a bit vague .

Bit more detail for you.
I am an RFD based in Dorset so have the facility here to help me progress with the .223.
So far using 77TMK bullets and CFE223 VitN140 and IMR4895 managed to get a reasonable result.
Been assured by the butts in both 600 and 900 yards that the bullets appear to be holding on the stabilization front.
FPS always a problem with the barrel length I guess and managing to shoot with my own designed muzzle brake without too much moaning.
The benefits with shooting in a group who all understand as a moderator tends to lose me around 4 MOA but does tame any recoil.
SD and ES figures are not the best and next time out will be using my magnetospeed on board chrono to match my results on target to FPS.
Also monitoring wind speed and direction and if too high will go back to shooting my 308 FTR.
As most said its a bit of fun and it helps my job and knowledge base.
Thanks
Mike

[DaveT]

Laurie Holland is your man....90 grainers I suspect!

 

May already be something on here.

 

Your twist not likely to be enough.

[duey]

I would imagine 30" -32" barrel with a 7.5 twist shooting 90gr would be the way to go to be serious, other than that, go for it and enjoy the frustration :-)

[Re-Pete]

We've done it with 650 and 760mm 1:8 barrels and 80gr SMK's & JLK's pushed hard...............great fun, but not to be taken too seriously.

On one occasion we actually got most of 'em inside the F-class 4 ring................it was a fairly calm day, very unusual for Stickledown.

 

RePete

[blackburnbuccaneer]

To expand on the above:
Not to burst your bubble, but with only a 1:9 twist Barrel you will be struggling as 70gr will be your limit in bullet weight. You do not say what discipline or what size targets you are looking to shoot at - if you simply want to hit a large-ish gong you might manage but I would suspect consistency will be somewhat lacking for more target oriented disciplines.

I have shot FTR mostly with .223 for 3-4 years now; initially with a T3 Sporter with a 20" 1:8 twist barrel which was fine out to 600y, but was really pushing the limit of what was worthwhile at 900 - 1000. I started off with the 69gr SMK - not sure why really - they were fine at 300y and whilst accurate at 600 they were too easily blown about in the wind so I quickly moved on to 80gr bullets (SMK then Berger 80VLD and 82BT). I found that the 80/82gr Bergers at about 2840fps were pretty good at our club range out to ~600y and held up fairly well in the wind but this was pushing pretty hard to get that speed in a 20" barrel I did shoot this combination at 1000 a couple of times and it performed reasonably well on TR sized LR targets, but I suspect I would have been struggling on an F-Class face..

 

Cue about 18 months ago and the factory barrel would no longer deliver the ~0.5" groups it did at 100y so I had it re-barreled by Stuart Anselm of Osprey Rifles with a 28" 1:7 Bartlein in a heavy straight taper, and as a result I can now shoot the 90gr VLDs as well - they are better still than the 80s at all ranges past 300.

This however does not help you, I think your best bet would be to find the highest BC 69-70gr bullet you can and launch it as fast as you can over a substantial (for .223) charge of a high energy powder such as N530/40 or RS52 (although I had good results in my 20" with RS50). This however may not work as what works well at 900 does not always at 1000, those 100 extra yards really do matter.

I think it will boil down to how much velocity you can get and how the bullet reacts to the trans and subsonic flight transition - some behave well some don't I am afraid I don't know which lighter .224 bullets do but the 80gr SMK has a reputation for it. The only way to know it to test a few bullets and see.

The long and short is try and you might find an elusive load/bullet that is workable - but conversely don't be at all surprised if it won't hit much either as almost any 70gr class bullet will be subsonic or close to by 1000y no matter how hard you push it - get a longer and or faster twist barrel though and there are many fun possibilities to play with that can be surprisingly rewarding.

[bradders]

With a 1:9 you can easily shoot 75gn VLDs such as JLKs and Bergers, and there's always the 75 Amax

I've shot all of these at 1000, and even the Amax at 1100. They may not be the best, but it's still fun

Last year I shot 77TMKs in the 800/900/1000 LR matches during the Phoenix in SO class (mag rested and 4.5x optic)

I was beaten by some geezer with a Schmidt Rubin in 7.5 with some Ajax scope or something

I didn't see him, so I suspect he cheated

[MrCetrizine]

It depends what you want to hit. I've shot 80gn VLDs at 24” steel plates out of a 20" 1:8 and got way more hits than misses and had fun. I've also shot for group on a target and immediately put in a variation for a 6.5.

[Laurie]

A VLD design may not actually be the best model as this type sometimes suffers badly in trans and subsonic transitions. John Carmichael showed that clearly years back in 7.62 Target Rifle with a large frame twin metalised sheet chronograph mounted on the Bisley backstop when Berger first introduced a range of .30 cal VLDs. They had higher BCs (losing less speed) at shorter ranges compared to the shorter / blunter SMK and Lapua Lock-Base designs, but performed worse beyond 800 at they became transonic.

 

The only way to find out is to try and see and hope that if you have great trouble getting onto the frame the butts crew don't get uppity and/or the RCO asks you to desist shooting.

 

When I started with the 223 and long distances a long time ago when people simply wouldn't believe you could hit a 1,000 yard target with the cartridge, I did have one try with the 70gn VLD and it was a complete disaster.

 

The 80gn SMK (which needs an 8-twist barrel of course) is another matter and will easily stay on the standard (super-wide frame plus 2-MOA 5-ring centre) NRA frame with most shots in the 'black' unless the winds are bad. The 6ft x 6ft F-Class frame and its 1-MOA 5-ring centre is a rather different matter unless it is a really 'quiet' day.

 

One problem you have at this distance with any of these not really suitable bullets is that the RO and Butts Officer soon come to hate you even if you get consistent hits somewhere on the frame - a little subsonic bullet (which includes the 80 SMK unless it's driven really fast) whispering through the air and making a tiny hole in a well patched target sees a lot of 'Message 4's being called. Diggle is particularly bad for this as the markers there can't see the bullet strikes on the sand backstop.

[VarmLR]

I've shot 69 TMKs to 600 (never did overly well with them, Circa just under 2moa, compared with sub moa at 400, but it was fun trying) and am developing a load for a bit of fun to 1000 but consider I'm on the limit with a 26 inch 1/8 barrel. Had intended on using 77g Scenar or 80g Matchking for 1000. A 1/9 may struggle with anything much over 70g for serious target work but as said, for a bit of fun, it's worth a go! The 77g TMK is also worth a shout.

 

I don't think I'd be tempted though on anything but a calm day to avoid the wrath of the RO! Frame strikes are unlikely to endear you to the Butts officer especially...

 

Having done a bit of time in the Butts in my military past, I will never ever forget the shear terror of once experiencing tracer rounds pinging off frames and the base timber of the butts and coming back at us like angry glowing ingots!

[Laurie]

..... and am developing a load for a bit of fun to 1000 but consider I'm on the limit with a 26 inch 1/8 barrel. Had intended on using 77g Scenar or 80g Matchking for 1000. A 1/9 may struggle with anything much over 70g for serious target work but as said, for a bit of fun, it's worth a go! The 77g TMK is also worth a shout.

 

 

 

Give the Berger 80.5gn BT Fullbore a try. It's a very well mannered design with a higher BC than that of the 80gn Sierra. The optimal twist rate is around 7.5 but the 8 will be fine unless you fancy a bit of winter target practice in Greenland. Lapua Match brass, Magnum or BR primer, Reload Swiss RS52 is ideal for high MVs at acceptable pressures, better than VarGet or Re15 although they both work well too in this loading.

[VarmLR]

 

Give the Berger 80.5gn BT Fullbore a try. It's a very well mannered design with a higher BC than that of the 80gn Sierra. The optimal twist rate is around 7.5 but the 8 will be fine unless you fancy a bit of winter target practice in Greenland. Lapua Match brass, Magnum or BR primer, Reload Swiss RS52 is ideal for high MVs at acceptable pressures, better than VarGet or Re15 although they both work well too in this loading.

 

Thanks Laurie,

 

will give that a go. Hadn't considered that bullet but it's a good shout. Have a local stockist of RS52 as well.

[Re-Pete]

+1 for the RS52.........it's my go-to powder for 223, 6BR, and 308. I use KVB-223 Magnum primers.

I've found them to be very consistent, able to take high pressures, and a definite no brainer at £21/1000.................

 

RePete

[MikeUpton]

We've done it with 650 and 760mm 1:8 barrels and 80gr SMK's & JLK's pushed hard...............great fun, but not to be taken too seriously.

On one occasion we actually got most of 'em inside the F-class 4 ring................it was a fairly calm day, very unusual for Stickledown.

 

RePete

Thanks RePete have added a bit more content to original message Mike

[Re-Pete]

See my posts on "Which route to take"............two threads on a near-identical topic !!

 

RePete

[Laurie]

Having done a bit of time in the Butts in my military past, I will never ever forget the shear terror of once experiencing tracer rounds pinging off frames and the base timber of the butts and coming back at us like angry glowing ingots!

 

 

Is there something about tracer bullets that make them more likely to ricochet and bounce around at he butts? Back in the days when the Terries shot GPMGs at Strensall (just north of York) at 200 and 300 yards on weekends, tracer rounds would give quite a fireworks show on a dull winter's day with ricochets fountaining all over the sky and disappearing over the top of the backstop.

 

This always intrigued me on two counts - the ricochets as I'd never seen it with FMJs and match bullets from civilian shooters when marking; the use of 5 Ball + 1 Tracer on a range where there were prominent notice boards at the car park and alongside the paths leading to the ranges that said 'No Tracer'. (There were other signs too in the 80s that said 'Beware of Snakes', although it was to be many years before I eventually saw an adder on these ranges even though I'm sure there were plenty living on the heathland in the ranges and adjoining training area.)

[VarmLR]

 

 

Is there something about tracer bullets that make them more likely to ricochet and bounce around at he butts? Back in the days when the Terries shot GPMGs at Strensall (just north of York) at 200 and 300 yards on weekends, tracer rounds would give quite a fireworks show on a dull winter's day with ricochets fountaining all over the sky and disappearing over the top of the backstop.

 

This always intrigued me on two counts - the ricochets as I'd never seen it with FMJs and match bullets from civilian shooters when marking; the use of 5 Ball + 1 Tracer on a range where there were prominent notice boards at the car park and alongside the paths leading to the ranges that said 'No Tracer'. (There were other signs too in the 80s that said 'Beware of Snakes', although it was to be many years before I eventually saw an adder on these ranges even though I'm sure there were plenty living on the heathland in the ranges and adjoining training area.)

 

I think Laurie that tracer was more likely to ricochet for a few reasons. I think it becomes more unstable in flight as the tracer elements burn off, affecting stability, and the velocity drops off faster than the rounds in between (usually it's one in 4 or so), so the tracer has a different POI in fact to the rounds in between which becomes more apparent at range. It's not overly significant to a few hundred yards and may not be overly so up to 600, but beyond that, I never found out.

 

My theory was that a combination of these things meant that the tracer was unpreduictable, even when fired through something like a Fig 11 target, and I lost count of the number that came whizzing and screaming back at us in the butts when they dropped, or tumbled, clipping the large wooden retainers at the base of the Butts. Miraculously I have never seen anyone injured, but there were a few expletives and an amusing range of "daddy dancing" at play when it did happen!

 

As you say, tracer gives quite an array of fireworks, and you often saw on night exercises streams of tracer going skywards from the GPMG fire, after hitting the intended target area. It's main function is obviously to assist with range finding and to assist in rapid target acquisition, but it's always better to be behind such things than find yourself, quite literally, in the line of fire!

[Laurie]

Thank you for that - interesting.

[MikeUpton]

A VLD design may not actually be the best model as this type sometimes suffers badly in trans and subsonic transitions. John Carmichael showed that clearly years back in 7.62 Target Rifle with a large frame twin metalised sheet chronograph mounted on the Bisley backstop when Berger first introduced a range of .30 cal VLDs. They had higher BCs (losing less speed) at shorter ranges compared to the shorter / blunter SMK and Lapua Lock-Base designs, but performed worse beyond 800 at they became transonic.

 

The only way to find out is to try and see and hope that if you have great trouble getting onto the frame the butts crew don't get uppity and/or the RCO asks you to desist shooting.

 

When I started with the 223 and long distances a long time ago when people simply wouldn't believe you could hit a 1,000 yard target with the cartridge, I did have one try with the 70gn VLD and it was a complete disaster.

 

The 80gn SMK (which needs an 8-twist barrel of course) is another matter and will easily stay on the standard (super-wide frame plus 2-MOA 5-ring centre) NRA frame with most shots in the 'black' unless the winds are bad. The 6ft x 6ft F-Class frame and its 1-MOA 5-ring centre is a rather different matter unless it is a really 'quiet' day.

 

One problem you have at this distance with any of these not really suitable bullets is that the RO and Butts Officer soon come to hate you even if you get consistent hits somewhere on the frame - a little subsonic bullet (which includes the 80 SMK unless it's driven really fast) whispering through the air and making a tiny hole in a well patched target sees a lot of 'Message 4's being called. Diggle is particularly bad for this as the markers there can't see the bullet strikes on the sand backstop.

Hello Laurie.

Mike here the .223 thread originator.

You were quite right.

I shot this successfully to 900 yds then went for the 1000yds armed with all my full technical data knowing that it was capable of reaching target at least.

Previous indications from the buts on a couple of occasions were that the round was going through target true and stabilized.

On the 1000yds day wind was around 8 to 12mph and about 30 degrees left to right so had all the figures and expected some windage issues.

The butts on this occasion was I feel was someone who thought lets get this .223 off range ASAP.

I calculated the 77TMK to be around 1070fps at target so yes sub sonic and I needed around 7MOA extra from 900 to the 1000yds.

In the end I had around 19MOA !!!!! and a confirmed hit on the target and that was the only one after this i was told not reaching target.

Bottom Line is I am going to try it again on a range that has sand in front so i can see for myself the strike positions.

I had to stop as my main worry here was incorrect information and the MOA amount I could be going over target.

Thanks for you input Laurie.

Mike

[gbal]

Black HIlls 77g SMK BC.390 @2750 800y 1260 fps 213/77 " 1000y 1070 fps 424/130 " drop/drift 10mph wind

 

Cor Bon 77HPBT BC .350 @2800 800y 1180 fps 224/87 1000y 1013 fps 456/146 d/d 10mph

 

Fed 77g Match BC.372 @2720 800y 1203 fps 227/83 1000y 1033 fps 456/139 d/d 10mph

 

SAAMI data showing performance effects of small MV and BC changes. All 200y zero.

 

BC's are those at the higher muzzle velocities-TMK maybe just a bit better...BUT...see below:

The 77 TMK BC over the 1000y will be below the average of the three bands Sierra give,proportionate to more time at the slower long distances (eg it goes below 2000fps just after 300y....so you neeed that considerably lower BC used in any ballistic program (or much better-use G7). Did you allow that in the 900-1000 calculation? Of course,that would also hold for 900,and you were on at that range (every shot?)....something seems amiss-as you say,but another hundred yards is a lot with such a trajectory-hope the sand helps!

gbal

[MikeUpton]

Black HIlls 77g SMK BC.390 @2750 800y 1260 fps 213/77 " 1000y 1070 fps 424/130 " drop/drift 10mph wind

 

Cor Bon 77HPBT BC .350 @2800 800y 1180 fps 224/87 1000y 1013 fps 456/146 d/d 10mph

 

Fed 77g Match BC.372 @2720 800y 1203 fps 227/83 1000y 1033 fps 456/139 d/d 10mph

 

SAAMI data showing performance effects of small MV and BC changes.

 

BC's are those at the higher muzzle velocities-TMK maybe just a bit better...BUT...see below:

The 77 TMK BC over the 1000y will be below the average of the three bands Sierra give,proportionate to more time at the slower long distances (eg it goes below 2000fps just after 300y....so you neeed that considerably lower BC used in any ballistic program (or much better-use G7). Did you allow that in the 900-1000 calculation? Of course,that would also hold for 900,and you were on at that range (every shot?)....something seems amiss-as you say,but another hundred yards is a lot with such a trajectory-hope the sand helps!

gbal

Thanks gbal.

Yes all my calculations worked up to 900yds and was consistently on target a few bulls and vee bulls but wind that day was around 3 to 5mph.

I used a mix of loads based on VitN140 and CFE223 with a slightly lower fps which i ramped up slightly for the 1000yds after checking i had a safety margin to do so.

As you say something a miss and I need to shoot onto sand or get a good marker to know whats happening.

As we all know this is only a test and i would just like to know it will hit target or not for my own satisaction.

Thanks

Mike

[VarmLR]

I was out today at 1000 yds (actually 984 yds as it was 900m), with a few people using .223's to try the distance.

 

I had a stint in the butts, and one poor chap went through over a dozen shots to land only about half of them on the frame, with only one in the black and the other 4 or 5 dotted about like chickenpox.

 

The other .223 shooter didn't fair a whole lot better.

 

They were using factory sporting rifles and I guess just weren't able to develop the MV's needed to keep the bullet stable and above transonic.

 

However, they did succeed, like you, in shooting their .223's to almost 1000 yards and even walked away smiling after between them putting a few into the black.

 

Given the limitations in play, it was a bit of fun and ended up in at least some satisfaction :-)

[MikeUpton]

Hello VarmLR

Yes I was able to build a specific load and shoot over a magnetoscope chrono to add to my load data so know the round is capable as you say.
I belong to Fifty Cal Club but have yet to shoot with them so this might be a better place to test it as i think Warminster is 900meters and Salisbury

quite a lot longer.
Just need to see calibres capability with my current rifle to see if its worth me building a better .223 for the job or going the 6mm 6.50 route

Mike

[VarmLR]

For longer ranges than 600 to 800 yards Mike, might you be better investing in a higher BC 6.5 route, perhaps Creedmoor using small primer Lapua brass or maybe Lapua 6.5 x 47?

[MikeUpton]

Yes exactly my thoughts have a good weekend

Mike

[atlanticity]

You know it makes sense regards jonathan