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Which route to take.


Blacknsilver

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I currently have one CF rifle. .204 semi custom Remington 700.

I started reloading and enjoying more and more shooting targets. Wether it's a steel gong or shoot and see targets.

The land I have permission on is passed for a .223. I am on a closed ticket living in North Wales.

 

I would like to do more target shooting. Whats my best route to go and what rifle to go for? I like the prone shooting. Being on a closed ticket will have its draw backs as if I joined a club it would only be shot there.

What sort of target shooting can be achieved with the .223?

I am

Just dipping my toe in the water to see what's on offer to me.

Any help would be great or if anyone is local that I could chat with?

Regards

Mark

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Bs- there is a quite wide choice-though some competitions/disciplines limit choice-as you note F-TR has to be 223 or 308 ;neither are the best LR cartridge,but 308 will outshoot 223 beyond 500y approx...

If you opt for 223 get a fast twist barrel-a 1 in 8,which will allow the use of heavier (75-80g) bullets with a superior BC,and they will do far better than the light bullets. eg Hornady53 HPmaatch BC.218 @3330 at 600y 92/64" drop/drift 10 mph,and Hornady 75 BTHP Match BC .395 @2790 600y 86/38" (its wind drift of course that causes problems). (308 lapua155g BC.46 @2820 600 120/67).

308 is a general purpose jack of most trades,but master of rather few-but then again a 7mm/284 is a bit specialised for very long range,though 284 etc will shred the 308-but lose out a little to the 7 short mags.

The 260rem,6.5x47 Lapua and increasingly the 6.5 Creedmore are maybe closest to current ideas of a good all rounder cartridge-but then you need clearance /FLO etc. The 223 will do most of what your 204 will do,and give reasonable target options,as above.

 

6BR and such like are good too-but don't go for some exotic wildcat at this stage;or a 223 with slightly more fps-you won't see much benefit and tend to lose out on convenience. Against all the other glittering goodies,,have a look at Accurate Shooter,and see what 223 offers,wihout major outlay.....don't rush it though...

 

gbal

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Ignore all the blether (and there is plenty of it,) come and shoot CSR (a real discipline for real men...and women)

Av 115 per match, mostly shooting .223, learn and improve..and most of all have a bloody good fun day out

None of the others can claim all of that

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Ignore all the blether (and there is plenty of it,) come and shoot CSR (a real discipline for real men...and women)

Av 115 per match, mostly shooting .223, learn and improve..and most of all have a bloody good fun day out

None of the others can claim all of that

 

What he said ^

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Ignore all the blether (and there is plenty of it,) come and shoot CSR (a real discipline for real men...and women)

Av 115 per match, mostly shooting .223, learn and improve..and most of all have a bloody good fun day out

None of the others can claim all of that

Yep, Bradders on the money.....

 

CSR is great fun and challenging. Get through around +100 rds in a full day. Four different classes as well so something for everyone.

 

Should add that all shooters have 1:1 supervision for EVERY match and stage. Newcomers welcome and you'll be kept safe and right by a friendly bunch.

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It looks and sounds very good.

Great replies and help. Defiantly in no rush as this could get expensive! Lol

 

The .223 would be what I would choose due to me being able to shoot it on my local perm to load develop etc.

I have contacted Diggle In Oldham In Greater Mancherster and have enquired there to see what's on offer there.

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.

I have contacted Diggle In Oldham In Greater Mancherster and have enquired there to see what's on offer there.

 

Diggle have a CSR competition every month - last Sat was this month's - I believe held in somewhat challenging weather :D .

 

Chris runs the CSR shoots and he's very helpful... digglecsr@gmail.com

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Check out the ballistics of a fast twist 223 shooting the 75 Amax or 80 grain Amax/80 grain Bergers. Any of these launched at 2900-3000 ftps give very good performance from under 25 grains of powder. This combination will out shoot light weight and medium weight bullet 308's.

 

The new 75 grain Amax ELD really looks interesting. Hopefully they will make a 80 grain Amax ELD, that would be awesome.

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+1 on 247 sniper-the 223 is much more pleasant to shoot,and about as effective to moderate range,at least ffor club/fun gong shooting...say 500y...maybe a bit more.

 

Accurate Shooter is a mine of information,but be aware much of the performance given (esp. in the forum posts) is derived from rather expensive 223s-what a 1/7 twist 26" full Custom Bartlein Bat will deliver with uber heavy bullets is not a very good guide to more modestly specced and priced basic factory rifles,at extended distances.

 

CSR is well worth considering,if that is a type of shooting that has appeal. It puts more premium on an AR15 type rifle,movement and positional shooting,probably higher round count,and less demanding ultimate long range precision than the Bartlein Bat type rigs offer. Different,where available.

 

Horses,and jockeys,for courses.

 

gbal

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Like 308, a well set-up 223 with a 26-inch barrel can be used in several target disciplines. You mention Diggle - have you looked at the competition calendar?

 

http://www.diggleranges.com/index.php/calendar

 

223s are pretty widely used in PR, Tactical, McQueens, F-Class, the Egg and Fly shoots, Benchrest and probably a few more I've forgotten. That's not to say the entries are stuffed full of mouse-gunners as 308 is more popular amongst those using multi-purpose rifles.

 

For up to 600 yards, you can happily use a 26-inch 7 inch twist barrel with something like a Wylde chamber set up to shoot 80s. You'll be up against purpose built rifles in virtually every discipline, but you can have fun and learn a lot. The 80s will shoot to 1,000 yards OK and stay on the frame if it's not too windy, but you start to struggle at this distance.To take the 223 seriously in FTR it needs faster twists, longer barrels, and a long-freebore chamber such as the PT&G '223 ISSF' with its very long freebore that restricts you to 80-90gn bullets and makes the rifle probably more specialised than you want, especially as it virtually rules out magazine operation.

 

600 yard F-Class / TR and 300 yard Tactical matches are scheduled for this Sunday at Diggle on adjacent ranges. You can come along and see what goes on and talk to people - you'd be very welcome.

 

What is a 'closed ticket'? Its significance escapes me.

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Interesting reading.

Like 308, a well set-up 223 with a 26-inch barrel can be used in several target disciplines. You mention Diggle - have you looked at the competition calendar?

 

http://www.diggleranges.com/index.php/calendar

 

223s are pretty widely used in PR, Tactical, McQueens, F-Class, the Egg and Fly shoots, Benchrest and probably a few more I've forgotten. That's not to say the entries are stuffed full of mouse-gunners as 308 is more popular amongst those using multi-purpose rifles.

 

For up to 600 yards, you can happily use a 26-inch 7 inch twist barrel with something like a Wylde chamber set up to shoot 80s. You'll be up against purpose built rifles in virtually every discipline, but you can have fun and learn a lot. The 80s will shoot to 1,000 yards OK and stay on the frame if it's not too windy, but you start to struggle at this distance.To take the 223 seriously in FTR it needs faster twists, longer barrels, and a long-freebore chamber such as the PT&G '223 ISSF' with its very long freebore that restricts you to 80-90gn bullets and makes the rifle probably more specialised than you want, especially as it virtually rules out magazine operation.

 

600 yard F-Class / TR and 300 yard Tactical matches are scheduled for this Sunday at Diggle on adjacent ranges. You can come along and see what goes on and talk to people - you'd be very welcome.

 

What is a 'closed ticket'? Its significance escapes me.

My closed ticket means I need land passed for that caliber and I can only shoot what it is passed for.

So the .223 is where I am at with the permissions I have got.

I have looked at the calendar and as I am totally new to the target side of shooting I am having to cross reference the abbreviations to see what is actually happening.

In a nut shell. I would like to be able to shoot at a range with my rifle up to 600 yards with a bipod and rear bag and basically learn to shoot longer distances.

I have land passed for me and permission to shoot on there for pests and targets/zeroing. So the .223 ticks the boxes.

I have contacted Diggle and I will be going up for an informal chat with Vince at a weekend in a few weeks.

I have loads of questions and lots of reading to do. As I said I'm new to the target side of things and still

Have a lot to learn.

Thanks for your replies.

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I have looked at the calendar and as I am totally new to the target side of shooting I am having to cross reference the abbreviations to see what is actually happening.

In a nut shell. I would like to be able to shoot at a range with my rifle up to 600 yards with a bipod and rear bag and basically learn to shoot longer distances.

 

 

You can do this with almost any reasonably accurate 223 and a 24 or 26-inch barrel. Many years ago I shot a Remington 700VS with its 12-inch twist barrel limiting it to 52-55gn bullets and the occasional slightly heavier flat-base variety like the long discontinued Berger 62gn HPM out to 600. A gust of wind, and you're off to one side of the frame unless it's read accurately and vast amounts of correction applied. A bit of fun for a while but ultimately frustrating.

 

A few people use the factory 'fast' twist models which is a 1 in 9-inch twist more often than not, and that lets you load the 68/70gn match bullets which are a big step up on the ballistics of the 52-53gn match models, but although more practical they're still very limiting on today's (small!) target sizes especially at 600 at Diggle which is a pretty difficult range, wind wise.

 

So that leaves a rebarrelling with something in a rather faster twist - 8 used to be the norm, but 7 is now more popular and recent work suggests it is needed to fully stabilise the longer 80s. Good handloads with the best of the 80s, probably the 80.5gn Berger Target BT 'Fullbore' for range use, in a 26-inch barrel is a perfectly competent range orientated set-up in ballistic terms for the sort of target shooting you maybe have in mind. With bullets like the 75gn AMAX (or whatever it has morphed into in Hornady's latest product line-up) or the heavier Sierra TMKs, it makes a very efficient long-range field rifle too.

 

You'll certainly learn a lot about wind reading and aiming off for it, and enjoy yourself.

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Following this thread with much interest, I'm in the same boat. A .204 for vermin that's too fast for my local ranges, and a .223 slot to be used mainly for target and the odd rabbit. Valkyrie here I come......

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As Laurie says...come on up to Diggle, take a few visits, and see what floats your boat. If you wish to have a go at CSR, let me know, and i will sort it.

 

Beware though....you will be hooked.

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Thanks again for the replies.

I do like the sound of the faster twist barrels. If I do go down the target rifle route then a semi custom number will be on the cards. Are you using moderators on these rifles?

I have been reading and seeing what sort of scope would suit my needs and the sightron s3 8-32-56 seems to be a good choice. It's not massively expensive and it seems that repeatable turrets are needed?

I will definitely be coming to Diggle in the next month to see, as a Baldie says 'what floats my boat'.

 

I agree, Valkyrie is on list for a price on a rifle build.

 

Feel free to suggest a wish list for a build. I can then look at raiding the piggy bank and selling a kidney if needs must!

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I have had a read of the Diggle shooting range web site and the disciplines.

The Annual Fly shoot and the Egg shoot sound great fun. Along with Tactical Rifle & McQueen, Practical Rifle and Civilian Service Rifle.

If all goes to plan I am go to try and get to up there this weekend.

I am putting in a variation on my fac for a .223. Can I have thoughts on Rifle, length of barrel and twist rate that would suit the above.

Cheers

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I've posted this many times so apologies to those reading it for the umpteenth time! I had a similar dilemma to yours Blacknsilver a few years back, albeit my ticket is open. I wanted a .223 for carrying out vermin control and target shooting. I soon found that you could have one off the peg, or build another but to do both on standard factory twist options is quite an ask due to most being 1/9 or 1/12 twists these days. (I understand that tikka may offer an optional tighter twist T3x .223 which would be worth a look at in their 24 inch barrel version).

 

I ended up buying a clapped out 527 Varmint and re-barrelled it with a 26 inch L-W 1/8 twist target barrel, having the throat custom cut to accept 80 grain bullet lengths in VLD. As mine has to be a practical field rifle too, a heavier target chassis was out, and I re-stocked it using a Boyds thumbhole stock which I had adjusted and bedded to suit.

 

I use a Nighforce scope on that one but may change it sometime for a Bushnell DMR (which I use on my .308 and rate it as a better scope than the Nightforce in some ways).

 

That rifle is predominantly used for vermin control to 300 yards, with extensive practice (normally I'd restrict myself to 200) and for 100/200/300 and 600 target.

 

So far I use 60g flat base V-max pushed quite hard (up to 3200fps) which are excellent to 300 yards plus, and 69g Sierra TMKs pushed to around 2850fps which make a good 600 yard bullet. However, get a whiff of wind, and the group size drifts appreciably. The rifle is sub 0.5moa capable (more than I am probably) and best group @ 100 has been 0.18 with an average of closer to 0.5 using bipod and no rear bag. Once the range is extended beyond 300 yards, the groups do start opening due to wind drift and other factors. By 600, 2moa on the average day on steel on my permissions or at Century seems to be the norm with 69 TMKs.

 

If I could start again, I'd probably opt for a 1/7 twist 26 inch and shoot the slightly heavier 80 and 90 grain bullets for 600 if I wanted to get more serious about competition, but for fun and for learning the wind, applying copious (!) amounts of correction, a 1/8 makes for an almost ideal all round chambering for .223.

 

Competition only, and it's probably not fast enough. Field only and 1/7 with a longer throat doesn't make any sense at all. All round, and 1/8 makes for a good vermin control rifle with flexibility to load from around 50gr to 77gr pills and take the range out past what you might otherwise consider sensible for tight groups in slower twists using 40 to 50gr, and it'll take small deer too if you have that on your ticket (although I tend to use my .308 for all deer).

 

It'll do everything the .204 will but you will need to compensate more once past 200 yards. I zero mine to 100 yards and dial if needed. I know my bullet drops so only need the range to quickly work out my drops. It takes seconds. Reading the wind requires more practice, and if you shoot across a valley, more practice still!

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I have a .223 Tikka M595 with a 30" 1:8 twist barrel and an extended throat. I just checked my records, and using RS52 with SMK 80grain bullets, the MV is 3100.

This gives a velocity at 1000yds (according to Litz), of 1264fps, which is still supersonic (just).

 

Usual caveats apply............. my useable case volume with the extended throat is a tad larger than most, and frequent shooting at these MV's with this powder will toast your barrel very quickly.

I've only shot this rifle at 1000yds a few times just to see what it could do.

In conclusion, 223 is a good calibre up to 600yds with 80 grainers at 2900fps, but it struggles to make 1000 meaningfully without some rather drastic input.

 

RePete

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Thanks for the replies.

I don't see me wanting to shoot to 1000 yards. Up to 600 The the range will do just fine. I don't want the .204 to become redundant as I love the rifle and what it can do for me up to 350 yards.

I will see what more info I can get from fellow shooters at the range and on here. The 1-8 sounds about right for what I want.

Cheers

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Check out the ballistics of a fast twist 223 shooting the 75 Amax or 80 grain Amax/80 grain Bergers. Any of these launched at 2900-3000 ftps give very good performance from under 25 grains of powder. This combination will out shoot light weight and medium weight bullet 308's.

 

The new 75 grain Amax ELD really looks interesting. Hopefully they will make a 80 grain Amax ELD, that would be awesome.

I had quite good success at Kingsbury doing the 300 and 600 yard lines, some time back. I used my Tikka .223 1 in 8 twist, using Lap brass, Federal Gold primers, BLC2 powder, and 75 A-Max bullets.

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Just a quick question (which is the proverbial can of worms?)

FFP or second for the above disciplines? 5-25-56 scope.

 

Unless you intend on using a ret for approximate rangefinding, SFP is the way to go. I have both and prefer using the SFP scope. In what you're after, a good used Zeiss or Nightforce NSX would do nicely. I use my FFP to 600 but for anything further, I have to zoom out to get the ret size down otherwise precision suffers.

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