shotgun chronograph

[6x47 lapua]

Hi all has anyone used a magneto speed to chronograph shotgun cartridges

thanks for looking

 

Cheers Stu

[MJR]

No but it'd be interesting to see if it works. Try it and let us know.

[gbal]

No but it'd be interesting to see if it works. Try it and let us know.

 

 

Sounds like a classic ballistic NIMBY

 

286+individual pellets in a straggly fast column....should do something to Magneto......but not my Magneto

 

Seriously,I'd ask the manufacturer BEFORE you send a failed warranty claim "just in case" -even for slug loads.

Do you need to know enough to risk it?

 

gbal

[force64]

I wonder if a new lab radar one would work?

[gbal]

Hmmm...BC approaching zero; vel 1085 fps; barely a 40 inch group at 50 yards-that's 80 moa.....but of course there is more to it-Shotgun ammo makes claims about fast loads,recoil etc etc..and some shotgunners reload....so "Let's test it and check" is understandable....

OK...it has been done....by amateurs using 'photosensitive' fly screen chronos,and rather more technically by manufacturers using derivitives of the Oehler Chronograph System,like the Model 71 Industrial chrono-inductive,not photosensitive.

 

Google it and read some detail,then go figure.....here's a flavour..:

 

Brezny,LP "Chronographing-basics for shotguns' "My tests were so meagre in terms of results,I didn't share them with anyone. Then Oehler came along......"

 

Winston,N 2001 "Chronographing Shotguns" is more technical,but includes 'why' some might want to

 

Buck,B "Shotgun Report" is altogether more optimistic "No Problems.I have an old Pro Chrony....it's not rocket science".....his motto though is "Often in error,never in doubt" (hmmm-cf 'optimistic')!

 

Trap shooting .com forum has some posts,as have a few other US shotgun forums...(not in my back yard,or with my chrono...but that's me-breaking clays is the best test !)

 

Not much very recently-though I didn't spend too long looking....one consistent point seems to be somewhat variable results/readings....some chronos may only take the 'first' pellet(s),and some might get ....err..confused? Consider shields for your chrony...velocity is measured in different ways by different manufacturers .......surprise,surprise.... :-)

 

gbal

[Chanonry]

and what do you do with the data once you have it ?

 

if you look at the data from Hull their top of the range competition load mv is 1600 fps their Sporting 100 has 1400 fps but at 60 yards there is only a 5% difference.

 

whatever the OP is looking for, this is the wrong tree....

[simonl]

and what do you do with the data once you have it ?

 

if you look at the data from Hull their top of the range competition load mv is 1600 fps their Sporting 100 has 1400 fps but at 60 yards there is only a 5% difference.

 

whatever the OP is looking for, this is the wrong tree....

What's wrong with getting to understand something better? Your 5% difference example is probably a 10% difference in retained energy. If you're using a rusty Russian lump to shoot a rabbit for tea once a month it's not going to matter much. For some people marginal gains such as this make a big difference though.

[Blue Haze]

Pretty sure that Magnetospeed advertise that the V3 works with shotgun?

[gbal]

Simoni,I understand some might want to know the actual velocities-bur It's not clear a chrono will do so very reliably-but if it does fine.

 

BUT,have you not rarther missed the point-the 5% velocity (and however that works out as energy) comes from the data on the box,or its correction by the chrono (if accurate). But the differntial is still going to be there-and that was built in by the manufacturer..NOT the chrono.

If you need the higher retained velocity & energy,you buy the cartridfges with the higher numbers ON THE BOX.

Amateur chrono-ing can hardly reverse these values,can it....?

The actual velocities won't change which loading has the advantage.....and if your test suggest otherwise,something has gone badly haywire - there was a factory 200 fps advantage in one box over the other loading!! Surely? :-)

 

gbal

[22lrman]

Not seen magnetospeed used but I believe Ive seen shotguns tested over a Chrony style device with birdshot at UKPSA matches. I didnt see any issues. I would probably not advise using a magnetospeed based on the wear I see on my PSG mag tube close to the muzzle. It extends past muzzle about 2.5 inches and ends up with a bit of 'polish'.

[simonl]

Simoni,I understand some might want to know the actual velocities-bur It's not clear a chrono will do so very reliably-but if it does fine.

 

BUT,have you not rarther missed the point-the 5% velocity (and however that works out as energy) comes from the data on the box,or its correction by the chrono (if accurate). But the differntial is still going to be there-and that was built in by the manufacturer..NOT the chrono.

If you need the higher retained velocity & energy,you buy the cartridfges with the higher numbers ON THE BOX.

Amateur chrono-ing can hardly reverse these values,can it....?

The actual velocities won't change which loading has the advantage.....and if your test suggest otherwise,something has gone badly haywire - there was a factory 200 fps advantage in one box over the other loading!! Surely? :-)

 

gbal

I rarely trust manufacturer data - centrefire or shotgun. I'm sure any one manufacturer might retain expected differential across its products, but when comparing products across manufacturers I feel it has merit. I doubt, for example, that they all use the same barrel length & choke.

I also would expect (but have not yet tried to prove) that the measurement would be reasonable: Within the first few feet there's such little dispersion that I'd expect it to effectively be one single lump of lead. Chrono stats would give an indicationof how good the measurements are.

I keep meaning to have a go at chronoing & pattern testing a reasonable sized sample with varying choke & range. The thing that I think will really change people's understanding of shotgun shooting, particulalry for game, will be consumer grade high speed video.

[gbal]

Simoni,OK-it probably depends on the integrity,reliability and validity of the differnt measurung systems. FRom my fairly cursory read on 'amateur' efforts with mainly photosensitive chronos,I'd not be nearly convinced they were in any sense "better" than commercial

manufacturers data using induction (Oehler) chronos.

I don't know if there is a SAAMI/CIP standards system used (or whether manufacturers stat barrel/choke data.

AS you suggest,it might be of some interest to compare factory and use chrono claims...though quite what could be done about any differences is unclear....and the basic point remains. The manufacturers data-especially within their own range of cartridges -is likely to be as reliable as we are likely to get. So if brand x "clayticklers' are listed at 920 fps and their "powdering power' at 1120 it's probably OK to take something like that differntial into account when choosing. Not sure if it is succh a big deal at 25-50 yards,for most shooters-given some (variable) lead adjustment is the real key to success (not totally unlike rifle MV and wind?).

 

The biggest revelation I had about shotgunning came from two facts-the great game shots did not use heavy loads and choke-an ounce/cylinder -but they did practice a lot!

And second,and absoloutely crucial- all the data published on patterns using a 40y 30 inch circle-or any variation onthat -were quite misleading (downright wrong) for any shot at a moving targetat any angle to the shooter.Bob Bristow proved this (and I mean 'proved') by towing the target behind in a long truck -and then the pellets hit the backer as in reality-as a long column-horizontal string- when that is split p into pheasant/clay sized portions,you get a much better idea of the real pattern,and its not at all negative-there is a trade off between densty,but also a tolerance for 'lead' because of this staggered time of arrival of the shot.

Most of the previous commentary-untested of course- on 'shot columns/stringing ' was rather misguided,as it assumed a more static target (tthe patterning plate)....

With this perspective,I'm even less convinced that 50 + fps are critical in most shotgun shooting...

 

When I started Bench Rest shooting at 100y,the basic principle from bristolBristows elegant search was clear (though developed independenty)-the moving backer records the bullet holes fired in real time and therefore impacting separately on the moving backer....simples,there were 5 shots fired-just even more so with a shotgun as the velocity of the target is way greater than the BR backer paper.

 

 

Bristow,B "Shotgunning-the Art and the Science" some now wll think it's old hat-well maybe-though by no means all wear it. :-)

 

g

[MJR]

Gbal, have you used a magneto speed to chronograph shotgun cartridges?

[gbal]

Gbal, have you used a magneto speed to chronograph shotgun cartridges?

No ,I haven't

I'd consider the magneto one of the best rifle chronos available to the 'amateur'.It may be fine for shotguns: I have no evidence-who does?-as to how it compares with commercial (induction) chronos,and ammo makers claims;but I don't think I'd change anything I've written-which was all essentially comparative-and pragmatic-what could be actually done if factory ammo velocities were consistently different-but maintained reasonably relative velocities-when measured otherwise.

I would be interested in sensible practical suggestions,but what is the shotgunner to do if quoted ammo velocities on the box don't agree with his measurements? I haven't lost sleep over this-I don't think I ever even looked at shotgun velocities,for the reason given-success seemed much more matter of personal judgement adapted to shooting style,than pellet velocity within a rather narrow range. Pellet size-or rather pattern density- seemed way more important-which Is why I didn't favour a rifle over shotgun for dynamic shotgun type targets,even if safety etc were not a concern.

 

g

[Chanonry]

I rarely trust manufacturer data - centrefire or shotgun. I'm sure any one manufacturer might retain expected differential across its products, but when comparing products across manufacturers I feel it has merit. I doubt, for example, that they all use the same barrel length & choke.

I also would expect (but have not yet tried to prove) that the measurement would be reasonable: Within the first few feet there's such little dispersion that I'd expect it to effectively be one single lump of lead. Chrono stats would give an indicationof how good the measurements are.

I keep meaning to have a go at chronoing & pattern testing a reasonable sized sample with varying choke & range. The thing that I think will really change people's understanding of shotgun shooting, particulalry for game, will be consumer grade high speed video.

 

if you do some physics you will work out that the difference in apparent lead from widely ranging (not subsonic) muzzle velocities is not relevant when compared to the pattern diameter and is beyond your accuracy capabilities anyway.

 

sticking with one shell means you have consistent pictures. nothing else is relevant. velocity is marketing bull.

 

you are transferring rifle concepts to shotgun shooting that do not carry the same importance.

 

High speed video shows that the concept of shot string is also bull, but who believed that anyway? Other than that, it is not going to change anything. Shooting the picture is a well known method for failure. A video will show you what you are actually doing rather than what you say you are doing. It will not present any new insight into the fundamentals of shotgun shooting because the true fundamentals lie in physiology not lower abstractions of trained technique. It does not provide a feedback loop between your thoughts and muzzle motion.

 

Enough free lessons, if you don't understand these points go find a coach who has shot for GB (i.e. has done it not talked about it)

[FGYT]

Simoni,I understand some might want to know the actual velocities-bur It's not clear a chrono will do so very reliably-but if it does fine.

BUT,have you not rarther missed the point-the 5% velocity (and however that works out as energy) comes from the data on the box,or its correction by the chrono (if accurate). But the differntial is still going to be there-and that was built in by the manufacturer..NOT the chrono.

If you need the higher retained velocity & energy,you buy the cartridfges with the higher numbers ON THE BOX.

Amateur chrono-ing can hardly reverse these values,can it....?

The actual velocities won't change which loading has the advantage.....and if your test suggest otherwise,something has gone badly haywire - there was a factory 200 fps advantage in one box over the other loading!! Surely? :-)

gbal

 

Some of us reload shotgun and as components vary wildly would be nice to have some idea if not true at least relative

 

 

The top of the range Magnito is rated for shotguns the basic version is not

[gbal]

Some of us reload shotgun and as components vary wildly would be nice to have some idea if not true at least relative

The top of the range Magnito is rated for shotguns the basic version is not

I can see why you might want to know,and said so,though I don't quite see what you would do with this "information" if components 'vary wildly' ( do you mean different makes give differnt consistent results,or it's just all over theplace,even within powders,especially?).And if the chronos are at best only 'relative'-whatever that means here (if they aren't accurate,then it comes close to 'might be slower/faster,sometimes'.....) add more/less powder maybe-to a wildly varying mix??

 

But hey ho! if the patterning is good,it won't really matter... SD MV is 100fps.

 

There is a fair dispute about whether velocity-within likely limits,has much effect,anyhow-but if anyone wants to use their chrono in this way-and thanks for the magneto distinction- that's up to them,of course.

 

Still sounds a bit like a noble quest for potential information that can't really be put to good use...but they said that about space exploration (and still could..) :-)

 

Heck Mec, I gave up on shotgun reloading,as my results made Baikal cartridges seem quality controlled;and I could not find fault in use with Eley Grand Prix-no choice,no messing (well chokes/load 5or 6 shot-until maturity set in around 17).Happy days,though perhaps rather "challenged" in avoiding complexity,and learning how to shoot shotguns.

 

"It's a hobby"-enjoy,and I hope the tools don't let you down :-)

 

gbal

[MJR]

So what he's really trying to say is 'no, I haven't used a magneto speed to chronograph shotgun cartridges'....

[gbal]

So what he's really trying to say is 'no, I haven't used a magneto speed to chronograph shotgun cartridges'....

 

 

Well,I've explicitly said that. Read on......

 

What I have asken,is what would we do with the results-a bit sceptically,as previous attempts have been a bit unsatisfactory,but more importantly, suppose the chrono reliably showed the mv was 35 fps under manufacturers claims-just what would that finding enable anyone to do (if it was much more,or if there was some shooting effect-fewer hits eg-then that would already be apparent....so what is the 'value added' by such informationeven if it were available?

 

I have said I can understand that some might want such information,though quite why isn't clear (as above)-especially if manufacturers use different methodologies as has been suggested

Seems to me in shotgunning,you have to learn to use the cartridges you have. Consistent velocity is quite desireable.

( I'll risk a comparison with rifles-such MV differences do not matter with cf rifles at 50 yards in terms of hitting the target as intended. It's hard to see what difference is likely with average shotgunners,other than a minor adjustment of forward lead-but that is always so with any velocity change,factory or otherwise.....AND is determined by trial shooting,not what it says on the box,usually.

 

If you can't follow this MJR (mike?- first names do add a patina of friendliness,which is nice) I'll try to put it in other words.It really isn't of much importabce-to me-just not worth a chrono-because the data doesn't seem very useable..."Information reduces uncertainty of action" -well,how in this scenario?

 

But by all means bang away and get a decent sample at least,bearing in mind good skeet shooters eg might run well over 1000 hits consecutively with factory ammo.....suggests consistency-or maybe that small variations don't matter. I have not heard DTL/Olympic Trap shooters etc blame their ammo for misses either.Perhaps they chrono their sponsors supplied ammo surreptitiously.....or can't make any better at home.....or both....Neither would be my bet-they shoot an awful lot of the same cartridges.

 

But what do they know? :-)

g

[FGYT]

I only reload my 10 bore (12 isn't worth it except slug)

As loads are limited mostly to big steel loads for goose at £40 ish a box

Already have a nice mild 36gms no 6 matches 12bore gamebore pigeon but no kick (10 weighs a bit)

 

 

But loads are usually component specific so have a load for cheddite hulls its not a good idea maybe to drop it in a remington hull

Or swap wads etc

 

Currently have a modified load for blue dot and 63gms of lead shot the original load was less but with buffer and was for no 6 shot I'm using no 2 both changes drop pressure so would be nice to see if velocity is similar to the original spec as its leaving some sunburned powder

 

And if there's room to add more shot weight

[gbal]

FGYT- I empathise with the heavy bore shotgunners with limited choice of commercial ammo-I nearly added this,but there are more niche users -including game solid slug shooters (big boar!). So I tried to keep it shorter,by just saying 'most average shooters'-for whom there is much very adequate choice,though of course they are free to experiment.

Presumably pressures are not inconsiderable (?) so you'd need corresponding confidence in the chrono accuracy and validity.

I nearly mentioned punt guns-even more so-but that seemed an impracticality too far,though not impossible-but what is the base comparison for those big bangers?

 

I hope your trials are successful (and that steel may have raised some questions)......

 

.....have to smile though at the suggestion of "sunburned"-I never found that a risk factor on the tidal foreshore,at night. :-)

 

atb

 

g

[simonl]

 

High speed video shows that the concept of shot string is also bull, but who believed that anyway? Other than that, it is not going to change anything. Shooting the picture is a well known method for failure. A video will show you what you are actually doing rather than what you say you are doing. It will not present any new insight into the fundamentals of shotgun shooting because the true fundamentals lie in physiology not lower abstractions of trained technique. It does not provide a feedback loop between your thoughts and muzzle motion.

 

 

For someone who can establish that the last 20 birds he missed were all in 6ft in front/behind/left/right I think video is a pretty compelling way to close the loop on what he's doing wrong. I've missed things & wondered why/how. Maybe you haven't, but I believe you'd be in a minority.

[FGYT]

.....have to smile though at the suggestion of "sunburned"-I never found that a risk factor on the tidal foreshore,at night. :-)

atb

g

 

Sorry spell checker being helpful. Meant "unburned"