Fox population questions, help wanted

[malcolm]

Sorry about the topic headline I could not think of anything else,anyway here goes. We have a farm in Scotland about a 1000 acres ,since April last year (2016) I have shot 27 foxes, all accounted for and picked up plus about three runners which were hit and lost in the heather or long grass.I have baited up a couple of areas and monitered them with trail cams. for the last two weeks and the food has been taken by birds (crows ravens magpies etc) no sign of any foxes at all. For the last two weeks I have been out with night vision ( no lamping at all ) and have not seen OR heard any sign of any foxes. Is this a sign that they are more interested in mating than food? Do you think that they have moved on to pastures new, or will new ones move in?

I dont know how many foxes that there should be per acre, I suppose it all depends on food to support them.I know that there is a lot of folk on here with a lot more experience than me and all comments and help would be most appreciated

[Tikka4Sika]

Sorry about the topic headline I could not think of anything else,anyway here goes. We have a farm in Scotland about a 1000 acres ,since April last year (2016) I have shot 27 foxes, all accounted for and picked up plus about three runners which were hit and lost in the heather or long grass.I have baited up a couple of areas and monitered them with trail cams. for the last two weeks and the food has been taken by birds (crows ravens magpies etc) no sign of any foxes at all. For the last two weeks I have been out with night vision ( no lamping at all ) and have not seen OR heard any sign of any foxes. Is this a sign that they are more interested in mating than food? Do you think that they have moved on to pastures new, or will new ones move in?

I dont know how many foxes that there should be per acre, I suppose it all depends on food to support them.I know that there is a lot of folk on here with a lot more experience than me and all comments and help would be most appreciated

You`ve almost answered your own question , food is the key ,but I doubt they will ever go completely , gamekeepers have to hammer them all year round and its not unusual to bag over 200 in a year on around 2000 acres , back to the food bit , whats your terrain like ? do you have much woodland or all open moorland ?

Foxes are doing a lot of calling / mating at the moment so if you are not hearing any maybe you have dropped the population , are you doing it to protect lambs or game?

[17 Rem]

If food is there, they'll keep coming. I have shot 7 from my bedroom window this year already!

[srvet]

I have had 7 off 7 acres in the last month or so. Keep looking as the territory will be filled at some stage

[malcolm]

Thanks for all your replies. In reply to Tikka4 all one side of our property is contained by forestry commision trees and in that area is mostly open moorland with a fair few protected badger sets.The fox control is to protect lambs we do not put any game down at all.Since controlling the fox population I have seen a lot more hares around at night, and just lately the ammount of Woodcock on the ground is amazing.

I will continue with the bait points and try the caller with vixen calls and see what turns up, Thanks again

 

Malcolm

[Tikka4Sika]

Thanks for all your replies. In reply to Tikka4 all one side of our property is contained by forestry commision trees and in that area is mostly open moorland with a fair few protected badger sets.The fox control is to protect lambs we do not put any game down at all.Since controlling the fox population I have seen a lot more hares around at night, and just lately the ammount of Woodcock on the ground is amazing.

I will continue with the bait points and try the caller with vixen calls and see what turns up, Thanks again

 

Malcolm

Good to hear about the hare and woodcock coming back , keep hammering Reynard , you`ll never wipe him out

[Toby]

I think that unless you are on a remote island that the foxes can't swim to, there will always be new foxes that move in to vacant territories. It may take time, as you have experienced, but they will come.

[Spielvogel pointers]

Nature hates a void

[rhhudson]

I seem to go through 'dry patches'

 

You wont see anything time after time but then all of a sudden you seem to get 2/3 move in.

 

Im sure that they are always around but just dont see them.

 

Just count it that you have the situation under control

 

[swiftur]

Hi , foxes always seem to become scarce at this time of year, [mating time] give it a couple of weeks and they will start showing themselves again.

[malcolm]

Many thanks for all your posts, its great to recieve such good advice from folk with more experience on foxing.I would rather pit myself against the wily fox than any deer.Well we have had quite a good covering of snow just after dark if it holds till morning we could have a better idea of whats around,as the old saying goes The wind cant always be in your face. I will keep you posted

 

Malcolm

[gbal]

The posts have included some experience based comments,and sensible generalities.

There isn't a great deal of really good research on this-I'm not inclined to accept self admitedly biased sources as fully objective etc.....But the issues are of ecological concern....

 

One influential theory is that of 'source-sink dynamics"-the basicc idea (now much elaborated) is that over population from supportive good habitates (sources) will migrate to poorer habitats (sinks).

The posters here are concerned with fox in UK,and the effect of shooting-will migration replenish?

Good question-common sense/experience answer is 'probably' ,maybe not immediately(eg breeding interupts-but then there are more fox...etc).

 

OK-here is a well conducted 'academic' study that tells us something-the issues are of worldwide concern for farming and conservation,re-introduction of possible predator species,and efficient hunting.

 

Navaro et al (2005) studied Argentinian culpeos (fox19-25 lb) over 1420 Sq K of mixed farms,in a 'natural experiment'-some ranches were sheep 66%) and some were cattle (34%).Outside this study area,37% of ranches were cattle. The crucial variable was that on the sheep ranches culpeos were actively shot (took lambs) while on the cattle ranches they were not shot (useful to control hares eating grass).

Some 75% of culpeos were shot over about a two year period in the sheep ranches but there was no population collapse-and over the time span,numbers remained fairly stable.Most shooting was autumn/early winter,and not the breeding season.

Some 40 or so culpeos were fitted with radio transmittersand tracked-migrations up to 90 Km occured,usually less. Deaths were also recorded (eg in hunted areas 7/8 kills were shooting and one road kill),in non shooting areas only 1 death total (wild dogs). Breeding fecundity was similar,as was the number of pups per breeding-though this is a relatively short term study).

 

Shooting did reduce local populations (on shooting ranches) by about 78%, but populations recovered ( only 8% mortality on the unshot ranches).

Culpeo dispersal (emigration) from the unshot ranches helped repopulate the shooting ranches much depleted culpeo populations.

But only if the non shooting ranches were above 37% of the total acreage.

 

OK,much detail/stats omitted,and it's not UK etc,but is fox/sheep/shooting/migration/ etc

 

But given about a non shooting 37% acreage within migration range,quite heavy hunting mortality did not result in population collapse-migration from the 37% non hunted areas effectively replaced the shot culpeos.

 

Note-both kinds of ranches are 'naturally' good resource areas,so it isn't a simple 'source/sink' study-and there is no suggestion that the culpeos know that they are safer on cattle ranches...(hares ok,lambs definitely not).

 

......but the fox species is reputedly quite smart....:-)

 

Basically,it's mostly consistent with earlier posts,adds some numbers-especially the approximate "safe" source zone size.....it does not ,and cannot, advise on whether this is desireable or not per se.

 

There are important policy implications for eg culling,and sustainable harvesting of animals-subject to relevant species and location research,of course-but it does add to relevant knowledge.

 

Novaro et al 2005 Journal Applied Ecology 42 pp910-920

 

gbal

[17 Rem]

Deleted.

I was going to ask what gbal is on about, but...

[gbal]

Deleted.

I was going to ask what gbal is on about, but...

 

Geronimo say: "shoot cavalry,more come " (from beyond great plains)

 

Navaro say: "shoot fox,more come" .....(if there is 37% protected source land within migration distance of 90km)

 

KISS Annual Reviews 2012 :-)

 

g

[Tikka4Sika]

No need to copy and paste one of your ecology students assignments G , wrong species , wrong continent , hands on experience tells us clear em out and more will turn up sooner rather than later , same with Brock.

[gbal]

No need to copy and paste one of your ecology students assignments G , wrong species , wrong continent , hands on experience tells us clear em out and more will turn up sooner rather than later , same with Brock.

 

Indeed,I think I said all that....:-)

 

I did have a colleague who reported that Thomson Gazelles in the Masai Mara were more alert when hungry female lions were on the prowl. Two years well spent. Gamekeeper here was somewhat underwhelmed . Colleague had a "Mathematical Model",too, which is impressive in an '-ology". :-) :-)

 

"No Comment" on young ,enthusiastic ,foxy ladies,keen to do field work.

 

Note,"sooner or later' was narrowed down (78% cull replenished within a season if a non shooting area of !/3 size within 90Km).

 

Usually good research does this- there are few flat earth believers still out there,though it's a pity perhaps some deprived themselves of cruises quite needlessly. :-)

 

g

[Tikka4Sika]

Indeed,I think I said all that....:-)

 

I did have a colleague who reported that Thomson Gazelles in the Masai Mara were more alert when hungry female lions were on the prowl. Two years well spent. Gamekeeper here was somewhat underwhelmed . Colleague had a "Mathematical Model",too, which is impressive in an '-ology". :-) :-)

 

"No Comment" on young ,enthusiastic ,foxy ladies,keen to do field work.

 

Note,"sooner or later' was narrowed down (78% cull replenished within a season if a non shooting area of !/3 size within 90Km).

 

Usually good research does this- there are few flat earth believers still out there,though it's a pity perhaps some deprived themselves of cruises quite needlessly. :-)

 

g

Yes there's plenty of Jollies that have been taken in the name of research , hats off to them , I need someone to finance me on a research trip to Hawaii to see how temperatures vary between beaches , bars and forestry ...any takers

[malcolm]

I did not think my simple question of really, Where have all the Foxes gone would attempt to provide an answer on a "paper" generated for a different continent. I think that I like the simple answer,you have shot most of them,keep on top of them before lambing as more will move in to mate.is that too simplistic

 

Malcolm

 

PS The snow did not amount to much and very very few tracks showed.

[gbal]

Malcolm,the simple advice is fine-as I have said all along.

Some species behaviour can be general-in this comparison,foxes are predatory on lambs,and culling has only a rather short term effect,in Argentina ( experience and research confirmation,fox and sheep)

 

As it turns out,the research in Argentina is consistent with the observations here in UK.

I'd have though most would be OK with that outcome,but whether you expect it,welcome it or ignore it,that's the data.

You don't need to acknowledge it,just follow the general advice (which is just a less detailed version of what the research says).

 

cf " the train you want will depart at 7.20 pm" and "the train you want will depart sometime later tonight". Enjoy the journey-if not the uncertain wait given only the second generality).

 

I hope the lambs are ok. :-)

 

gbal

[snakeman]

Mal

 

I really wouldn't concern myself with stats in this matter. Furthermore I wouldn't overly concern myself if there wasn't any fox in the area (which there will be).

 

Nature takes only what it needs to survive, foxes the same and if a fox needs a den they will inhabit, not in your time but in their time - over the years I have found patience is key in all elements of foxing.

 

I also find, whether I've culled or not, that it's about the hunt, not always necessarily about the kill... I've spent many a night out in all weathers when requested by landowners, leaving with an empty bag - sometimes you win, sometimes you lose but, the anticipation and adrenaline is always coursing through the veins.

 

In no way do I wish to sound condescending but I have found that just being grateful, that I have land and permission on which to shoot, negates all the disappointment of whether I've culled that night, or not - tomorrow will be another day

 

Many people (even on here) as yet, do not have permission to walk around land legally with a high-powered rifle to shoot, and to have that permission, is a privilege

 

ATB

[malcolm]

Thanks Snakeman I agree with you 100% ,at my age it is still a delight to get out,there is always something new to see and learn from,its the hunt that gets the pulse racing.

 

Malcolm

[Alycidon]

Once you get on top of the population then you will still get odd ones coming in to fill the void. Most years here we shoot no more than 15-20, thats lamping around 100 nights a year over about 1000 acres.

 

A

[gbal]

Once you get on top of the population then you will still get odd ones coming in to fill the void. Most years here we shoot no more than 15-20, thats lamping around 100 nights a year over about 1000 acres.

 

 

Unless there is over 40% surounding land with good,not shot,fox populations (ie a 'source') then that's no surprise-at least you won't get any pesky Argentinian ones-the Atlantic is quite a barrier! :-)

 

gbal