Brass cleaning & accuracy?

[Big Al]

Im curious as to your thoughts on this guys?

 

Some people are meticulous brass cleaners, others aren't - how much difference do you think it makes to ultimate accuracy and which in your opinion are the key areas?

 

I tend to concentrate on case neck inside/outside and I clean the primer pocket every 3 firings, other than that I just rub the case over with a cloth, I dont tumble wet or dry or use ultrasonic.

[MrCetrizine]

I personally think the only bit that makes any difference is the inside of the neck.

Having said that, I like mirror shiny brass.

[Elliott]

I've heard that accuracy improves if carbon is allowed to build up on the interior of the cases but I quite enjoy the look of fresh, shiny reloads so I ultrasonic with citric acid and then polish in the tumbler. Primer pockets come out immaculate too

[247sniper]

I dont think that it makes any real difference tbh. Like has been said though as long as the inside of the case is clean and give the deposition around the neck a wipe off all should be good.

 

However I love shiny brass I use a ultrasonic cleaner and a tumbler and they always come out better then new. Ive never had a problem and have always had good results so Im not going to change. Im about to add annealing into the reloading stage as well very soon.

 

 

Steve

[The Gun Pimp]

I don't normally bother but I've just been reviewing the Lyman Cyclone tumbler with steel pins.

 

It does an amazing job - on primer-pockets and inside necks - come out like new.

[1066]

I like clean brass too. I use SS media and it does an amazing job. Clean brass makes it much easier to see those tiny little cracks or any other defects.

 

Accuracy wise, probably not. I like clean primer pockets but no advantage in shiny.

 

One thing I have noticed that may have an effect: When I'm developing a load and I'm fine tuning the seating depth, I load a batch of the same charge but all at maximum length. At the range I use my Lee hand press with a micro seating die to progressively seat the bullets in deeper, ten thou at a time for each group.

 

Now, if I load the rounds and shoot them the same day, the bullets seat deeper smoothly, if I leave them a week there's a definite resistance before they move.

 

Not sure if this would make any difference on the target, probably wouldn't happen with diry/carboned necks or moly/HBN coated bullets - just food for thought.

[gbal]

There seems to be no well controlled data showing that cleaning brass increases ammo precision.

 

There seems to be no well controlled data showing that cleaning brass decreases ammo precision.

 

There is evidence that quite generally,uniformity of brass has demonstrable positive effects.

Uniformity of internal case neck-and hence bullet retention-is probably the most plausible,for ultimate precision-but uniformly clean or uniformly 'dirty'?

 

The late great Warren Page-one of the best ever all round rifle shooters (Boyer has shot more screamers,Boddington more varied creatures) promoted accuracy in bench rest,and hunting,and did not clean primer pockets (he assumed that the depriming pin made the hole reasonably uniform for purpose). Maybe so.

 

There are of course,plenty of opinions and anecdotal claims about cleaning regimes/not either way.

 

There are also reasons other than pure precision that are consistent with clean brass.

These include less wear/tear on dies/equipment;slicker chambering/extraction;easier brass pick up;and especially-'aesthetics'-it looks good.

 

This last one may just improve accuracy (it has no impact on precision)-a shooter who has pride in his shiny brass,and more confidence in it,especially if perceived as more meticulous attention in reloading precision,may just shoot a tad better for these psychological reasons.

 

IF there are any potential gains at all in precision or accuracy,they are most likely to be observed in the disciplines that demand the highest levels of precision and accuracy (and everyone else is doing it). It may be elusive to actually measure,being in the mix-if at all-with so many other variables.

 

The development of (economical) alternative methods of brass cleaning-sonic etc-has made the cleaning of brass easier,and the efficient cleaning of case interiors possible. This can only nudge the decision towards 'clean',as investment in the improved process reduces,and potental gains remain the same,or even increase.

 

The argument for annealing may be quite similar- maintained,if not improved,precision,for more firings,though the very best current methods(both senses) come at some cost. :-)

 

gbal

[Laurie]

I like clean brass, but not on the inside of the neck. I know a long-time successful long-range BR competitor who compared results for rounds loaded in cases with necks cleaned down to the metal v carbon coated but brushed to remove surface film. The latter won out consistently.

 

Backing that up, I demilled some handloads in Lapua brass with 155 Scenar bullets last year after they'd been sitting in the cabinet for maybe 18 months. Those that were in new cases that had only been given a run over a mandrel before loading had bullets stuck into the necks and were subjectively similar to trying to debullet milspec 7.62 with their crimp and asphalt sealant in a kinetic 'puller'. Others with coated inside necks saw the bullets come out consistently with a couple of moderate taps. The hard to shift bullets all had discoloured shanks where they'd been in the neck. Yes, neck tension on new Lapua brass is higher even after a run over a mandrel so that may have been the cause or at least a contributing factor, but I suspect it was mainly a clean metal to metal issue.

[Davy]

I am listening to a LEM rattling some 22-250 brass right now. My view is I am going to FLS and look for consistent and repeatable rounds so I clean after every firing meaning the case dimensionally is always as it was before firing. Additionally, dies are expensive and carbon on the outside of the case neck can score titanium nitrided bushing dies over time, let alone normal FLS dies so I make sure everything is clean.

 

At the other end of the scale, my wife shoots a wildcat and flatly refuses to tumble her brass arguing it took ages to trim, neck down and set-back so why should she then bash them all together in a tumbler. She uses a worn out green scourer pad to clean the necks and that is about all until they are ready to be bumped and at that point the are cleaned and sized again.

[terryh]

Al,

 

Not sure if it makes any difference, not sure if I worry actually? (trying not to sound flippant here BTW)

 

Cleaning the brass is just part of the process to me,

 

It's a state of mind and your personal attitude or approach towards things in general, whether it is how you 'do' your job in the outside World or how your prepare your brass - do you do 'just enough' or strive to leave things better than you found them.?

 

Terry

[Big Al]

It's a state of mind and your personal attitude or approach towards things in general, whether it is how you 'do' your job in the outside World or how your prepare your brass - do you do 'just enough' or strive to leave things better than you found them.?

 

Terry

 

 

People who know me well Terry would say Im a perfectionist, I would tend to agree, sometimes this is a great attribute, other times a real burden.

 

However, I also have a real issue with efficiency. For example, I hate wasting time or effort for nothing other than cosmetic reasons when it comes to reloading. I want to make sure my brass prep is as good as it needs to be for the accuracy and consistency I want and no more. I personally dont care if I kill something with a dull case or a shiny one, the same could be said for shooting good groups.

 

Areas where cosmetics matter and have a real quantifiable impact on something they I can become obsessive. I guess its just about trying to balance what really needs to be done versus what makes others happy but is a needless waste of effort and time.

 

For me, reloading is a means to an end, I dont really take a whole load of pleasure from it, I would rather be shooting it or building something to shoot it with than making it.

[gun nut]

I think you're right Gbal, how the ammo looks has more to do with the shooters performance than the ballistic performance of the ammo. I'd bet a penny to a pound that if any of us were given ten rounds each of scabby looking ammo and lovely shiny stuff we'd shoot better with the later for no other reason except that we would expect to. The power of the mind to effect performance at the firing point should not be underestimated!!

[VarmLR]

I have never seen any documented evidence to suggest that clean necks give rise to more consistent performing ammunition than carbon'd necks, nor vice-versa. Even if there were, the control rifle's chamber and rifling would have to be accurately measured or at least "calibrated" against other loads (say quality factory loads such as Hornady TAP) to ensure that no other variables were involved. Brass consistency and especially neck tension I would have thought were more important by far.

 

For me, I would rather have clean brass to start with for several reasons. Firstly, it makes identifying possible issues or defects easier to spot and secondly, it takes less of a toll on abrasive wear and tear of the dies. I have a two stage cleaning process with brass which is bothersome and in no way pleasurable but I do it with every reload. Firstly, I tumble brass in walnut media for several hours, then size and de-prime, trim if necessary, clean flash holes, and chamfer/deburr necks before ultrasonic cleaning mainly to get primer pockets nice and clean before oven drying. A complete PITA but it's a habit I've got into. I know some that clean three times but I can't really see the point or advantage.

 

For me, neck tension and uniformity are by far the more important considerations. If curious, then I'd have thought using a chrony to test various batches for ES/SD might show any significant advantages of clean V's dirty of say once fired brass but I'd be mightily surprised to see any real differences.

[terryh]

Gents,

 

Struggling with the time or efficiency comments? Time to drop say 200 brass into a tumbler and turn on the timer + use a separator to empty the brass of media + check the primer holes = totals what 5-10 minutes tops? If you are that pressed for time then I'd agree, but personnaly I'm not - and I've a pretty full on home/job life compared to most folks, this is my hobby & interest, actually an 'escape' so doing things right IMHO is part of the 'therapy'

 

Concur with mental game, you've done everything that you can to arrive at squeezing the trigger with all factors to the best of your ability so your confidence in ammo is good.

 

Laurie, interesting information! I think I read once that some people load thier rounds with the bullet sat out from its final LOA then on the day of shooting seat the bullet in to correct LOA to stop any 'bonding' between bullet and brass, think this is along the same lines? There has also been advertised coatings of inside the neck, graphite based? Could this be another advantage of soft seating??

 

T

[Brillo]

I think it's a case of whatever shakes your rocks.....

 

I go through phases of cleaning and not cleaning. In my 'no cleaning' phase I clean the carbon of the necks with fine wire wool and inside the neck with a nylon brush. I do this to preserve the sizing die bushing and so I can check the necks for flaws etc.

 

In my cleaning phase I tumble before sizing and then (occasionally) ultrasonic the cases as a final stage to ensure the primer pockets are clean. Ultrasonic cleaning does make the cases nice and shiny but that's all they are really.

 

To the limits of my abilities I've not found any difference in accuracy in either cleaning regime. I've compare clean and not clean cases over a chronograph and not observed a difference.

 

So, to me, it's just paradigm thing.

[Laurie]

Laurie, interesting information! I think I read once that some people load thier rounds with the bullet sat out from its final LOA then on the day of shooting seat the bullet in to correct LOA to stop any 'bonding' between bullet and brass, think this is along the same lines? There has also been advertised coatings of inside the neck, graphite based? Could this be another advantage of soft seating??

 

T

 

 

Yes, that's quite a common practice where large batches of ammo are loaded well in advance of use. Over the years, I've had both good and bad experiences with handloads that have been loaded to the final COAL and then sat around for a long time before shooting them. My current practice seems to have no 'use by' limit at least as far as 308 Win with Lapua Palma brass and Berger bullets go.

 

My one go (in a 284 F-Class rifle) with low neck tension / soft seating gave very poor results, so I've never tried it since.

[stu47]

In Mic McPhersons book "Metallic Cartridge Handloading" he explains that when the outside of a cartridge is shinny and polished it will show extractor marks when compared to an identical load in a dirty case. This is due to the case sliding back before obturation is achieved against the sides of the chamber whereas a dirty case exterior can grip the chamber walls and won't show extractor marks. I've not tried this myself as my pet load for my .308 is not at the top end of the safe limit and, like many of you, I just follow my case prep regime to ensure my cases are clean and dont crap up my dies.

 

Mic also explains that using a copper brush on the case inner neck will rid it of residue ensuring case to case consistency.

 

I have a copper bore brush in my drill (set to low speed), each case is pushed fully on then withdrawn with the drill rotating, every 10 cases I reverse the direction of the drill to prevent the bristles of the brush flattening down. The process is fast and it does work for me, I follow this up with a que tip soaked in solvent rubbed around the case inner neck to mop up any case lube which maybe left behind.

[Catch-22]

My opinion (and it's not based on any emperical evidence) is that any form of cleaning out all the sooty carbon from both inside and outside the case is a good thing, as doing so attempts to make all cases as consistent as can be.

 

I too clean both the inside of the necks and pockets (a scrub and a twist in that order) but feel that if I don't do the same to the interior of the case, is the carbon buildup on the INSIDE, potentially reducing case capacity - albeit a bit??

 

After I deprime and clean both the necks and primer pockets, I leave the cases running in the tumbler with walnut media and polisher for an entire day (while I'm out at work) and I'm always amazed at not only how much cleaner the cases are but also how quickly the media becomes dark and sooty. That suggests to me there's a load of carbon residue that's being cleaned away from the inside that otherwise wouldn't be. In my mind, it's good all of that is gone to leave (I can only assume) a better level of internal consistency for my charges, and potentially a slightly less sooty barrel?!?

 

Just my 2 cents.

[VarmLR]

Not a lot of scrubbing is necessary if a double or triple cleaning regime is followed. I tumble my brass, fresh from the range, deprime and size, and after trimming where needed and chamfering, it gets a good US cleaning and the insides of the necks are usually clean to bare metal. No faffing around with brushes needed then.