Extreme Spead???

[James19306]

How important really is extreme spread? I have just been out this evening shooting at 200 yards and through my magneto speed v3 And over 20 shots I got an Es of 169. What accuracy difference does this really make at 200 yards?

[bewsh]

How important really is extreme spread? I have just been out this evening shooting at 200 yards and through my magneto speed v3 And over 20 shots I got an Es of 169. What accuracy difference does this really make at 200 yards?

Show us your targets and someone will tell you!

[James19306]

Here is my .222 at225yards with an Es of about 40fps

[James19306]

Here's the other gun with 169 fps

[Tuck]

Think the targets have answered your own question. Are you using bushing dies? If not do you have access to any? To borrow to play with your neck tension to see if that can bring it down a bit

[James19306]

I may as well tell the truth...... The second target is an hmr. How crap is this compared to others results. I'm thinking it's days are numbered and I've only had it a month. Fired 3-400 rounds. Is that ammo worth complaining about at 225 yards?

[Tuck]

To be honest think your asking alot of a HMR. At that range, it will never compete with your 222. If really want something accurate at that range smaller than your 222, maybe a .17 centrefire would be a better choice.

[treetop]

To be honest, at 225 with an HMR, that's probably not bad..

I don't know what the conditions were like, wind ect..

But as said, your asking a lot of it at that range

[James19306]

To be fair Hornady call it an honest 200yard performer. What would you be shooting with an hmr at 200 yards that would have a 3.5" kill zone??

Maybe it is a bit much to ask but i still think the accuracy is a bit naff. I think it's going to be shifted on shortly and replaced with something in a small centre fire as said above. What have people switched to from the hmr? What fills the gap nicely between .22 and .222/.223?

[onehole]

Sorry but cant see a true "extreme spread" comparison here,,,,we have two completely different scenarios here......and pointless???...At 200 yards comparing an accurate highish ES and an accurate low ES will probably not show up ,,it can and will show its ugly head a lot further out ,,,,,,There,s a lot more going on than just ES,,,,,think,,?,,,,O,

[treetop]

To be fair Hornady call it an honest 200yard performer. What would you be shooting with an hmr at 200 yards that would have a 3.5" kill zone??

Maybe it is a bit much to ask but i still think the accuracy is a bit naff. I think it's going to be shifted on shortly and replaced with something in a small centre fire as said above. What have people switched to from the hmr? What fills the gap nicely between .22 and .222/.223?

Personally I wouldn't use one past 150, most of the time I would stick to around 120 yards

Reason :

At 120 the round is carrying 1866 fps, 131 ft lbs

At 200 the round is now 1441 fps 78 ft lbs

 

The big difference is wind - a 4mph wind at 45 degrees :

120 = 1.3" drift

200 = 4.3 " drift

 

A 3mph wind @ 45 degrees :

120 = 1" drift

200 = 3" drift

 

So, just a slight difference in wind at 200 and your already off by 1.3 inches !

 

 

What Hornady say to sell it is one thing, what it does is another ...

 

There are plenty of good calibers, it just depends what you want it to do

[James19306]

The .222 target I suppose is pointless for this discussion. What I'm trying to establish from someone with some ballistic software is will HMR ammo with an Es of 170fps cause a group this big at 200 yards? Ie is it the ammo or the gun?

[treetop]

Even using a basic bit of software like bullet drop, on my phone ..

 

Say you zero at 120 yards ( + 0.5" at 100yrd )

And starting with the box speed of 2650 fps for 17 gr

Wind - 4mph @ 45 degrees

 

At 200 yards :-

1441 fps , 78 ft lbs, drop of -6.1" wind drift 4.1"

 

Now drop the speed by 150fps :-

1346 fps, 68 ft lbs, drop of -7.2" wind drift 4.5"

[onehole]

James19306,,,,,,I love it and hate it but HMR is not worthy of true analytical consideration ,,,it is what it is,,,100 yard MOB bunny basher if your lucky,,,,,,,selling mine,, a safe 200 yard hmr shot is a safe 223 shot too ,,like your 222 at 225....nite <<<O

[Montey]

22 rim fire upto 60yards sub sonic .17 HMR upto 150 after that 204 or 223 and never the first two on fox. I can go 22-250 243 and finish 308win so I feel fully covered.

[treetop]

22 rim fire upto 60yards sub sonic .17 HMR upto 150 after that 204 or 223 and never the first two on fox. I can go 22-250 243 and finish 308win so I feel fully covered.

Totally agree,

Except I don't have a 204, or a 22-250..

I do have 17 hornet, which slides in nicely between the .22 & the 223

[James19306]

Which 17hornet do you have treetop? Do you find it easy to reload for as I've seen a few remarks online with people getting mediocre accuracy from the round?

[Big Al]

The HMR is a factory loaded rimfire, expectations of anything better than your getting are unrealistic. The HMR didn't materialise into the wonder cartridge it was claimed to be, Ive had a couple and my friend bought a new Annie 1517TH, none of those rifles could shoot groups any better than yours or offer ES figures much better.

 

It is what it is, a loud rimfire with a bit more legs than a .22lr - never in a million years is it a realistic or humane 225yd tool so dont expect good performance at that distance.

[bewsh]

perhaps if bored you should shoot 20 different targets and log the MV for each one.

 

overlay the targets from rounds with similar MV to reduce your perceived ES and see if the resultant group is vertically smaller

(ES should in theory only affect the vertical spread, it is not that simple as it does affect lateral POI but not as significantly)

 

or get used to the fact that the ammo quality is dire and that the rifle is barely accurate enough to shoot rabbits at 200yds

[James19306]

That could be an interesting experiment bewsh. I'm not expecting perfection, the .222 rifle is nothing special either a Sako 85 varmint which going by they target shoots 5 shots at .3 Moa at that range. Surely the little Cz 455 barking can manage better than the 1.5 Moa I got shooting at the same time which leads me to believe the ammo is to blame. The horizontal spread was about 1.25" the vertical was about 3" so the Es is surely not helping.

[treetop]

The 17 Hornet is a great rnd. I get easy sub 1moa, and it's much better in the wind, likewise a 20gr bullet moving at 3600 fps carries more energy down range. I have no issues reloading, yes it's more fiddly, but not hard... You just have to be careful on powder weights, but if your reloading, then that goes with the territory .

 

As I said before, it depends what you want it to do.. I've shot a lot of rabbits out to 260 yards with the Hornet, but I wouldn't take a fox at that distance with it. Likewise, I've shot loads with the HMR, but I keep them sub 150yrds.

There are limitations with all rnds, as long as you know what it does & will do, then great. But don't try to push it beyond what is humane or sensibly capable of.

[DW58]

Why on earth do you need a calibre between .17 HMR and .222 Rem - IMO you don't, save yourself some money.

[James19306]

i see your point mate but I'm talking about something to replace the hmr. I would like to have something reliable for shooting crows and rabbits between 100-200yardaand the hmr is not it. I really like the theoght of something .17 cal as its a bit quieter than the .222. If the hmr was consistent it would be the perfect rifle but as he ammo sadly is inconsistent rubbish I think a .17hornet would be a much more reliable option and would fill the gap really nicely between .22 and .222. It would also be more fox capable at under 150 yards which is important to me as a poultry farmer.

[The_Dogge]

The HMR used to be great, even then I didn't often shoot beyond 150yd with it. Though a rabbit chest kill zone is bigger than you think, 3" is probably realistic.

 

The issue is 100% the ammo, it used to be good, now it's not. Your 225yd group is actually great for current HMR ammo! I would be lucky to shoot that with my custom barrelled Anschutz, which in it's (or rather the ammo's) day shot 10mm groups at 100m. I just found a target from 2010 100m and the 7 shots on it can be covered with a 5p. Now I'm lucky to get <1.5".

[VarmLR]

i see your point mate but I'm talking about something to replace the hmr. I would like to have something reliable for shooting crows and rabbits between 100-200yardaand the hmr is not it. I really like the theoght of something .17 cal as its a bit quieter than the .222. If the hmr was consistent it would be the perfect rifle but as he ammo sadly is inconsistent rubbish I think a .17hornet would be a much more reliable option and would fill the gap really nicely between .22 and .222. It would also be more fox capable at under 150 yards which is important to me as a poultry farmer.

 

I found very little difference in noise between my .223 and my old HMR. A moderated 222/223 will be almost as quiet in terms of muzzle blast with an effective moderator.

 

The HMR was an utter waste of time and money with inconsistencies in ammo, squib rounds and with more than a puff of wind, useless as a 150 to 200 yd crow basher. For closer bunny bashing between 80 and 150 yds it is ok and that's where most seem to benefit from using one, providing it's not blowing a gale. I wasted more money on ammo trying to get the thing to shoot straight and finally sold it after 5 years.

 

I have had a lot of calibres over the years but for vermin control, just use two now, the 22LR and the .223. Between them, they cope with all scenarios and ranges that most in the UK need from squirrels, rabbits, crow etc at closer ranges, to fox and long range crow at farther distances (.223).

 

In your shoes, I can't see any need for anything other than a 22 and your .222. If what you're saying is you'd like to try another calibre, then fill your shoes as there's a load of fashionable flat shooting rifles out there including the .204 and .20 PPC, and no need to justify your choice other than good reason for ownership.