The right choice

[Blacknsilver]

Hi guys. This will be my first post on here. Spent a good while reading the posts on various topics and there are some great replies. So here's my first real question.

 

My shooting history is mainly Air Rifles. I like the stalking of rabbits. Crawling around on my front and getting in range and then taking a good clean shot.

 

I then progressed on to FAC Air. I have a .25 shooting at 49fpe. Great for squirrel and rabbits up to 50yards and a bit farther if conditions permit.

 

I then and just recently wanted a powder burner. I have .22lr and .17hmr on my ticket. I opted to get the .17hmr first. I was concerned about the richocets of the .22lr and thought it was going to do a similar job to the .25 air gun. The .17hmr ticked boxes is flat shooting and the range has at least doubled.

I enjoy shooting. Wether it's targets or pest control.

I have a few permissions. Largest at the moment is about 300 acres. I think it's passed to .243. It's in north wales with plenty of backstops.

I intend on buying a .22lr for targets and the odd bit of pest control.

The .17hmr does have a few issues. One being that I haven't got permission on my ticket to shoot fox and being in north wales I have been told that that's not the cal they allow.

 

I want to put a variation in in the next few mths that will tick the box for rabbit, crow etc but also mr Fox. The farm I shoot on is a sheep farm and does have the fox problem at times. I also want to broaden my pest control.

Still being new to the larger rifles I would want to keep killing ranges to a sensible distance and still rely on field craft.

What would you suggest for a hard hitting flat shooting round that's good for factory ammo (at the moment) that's great for rabbits but also takes down the Fox.

I have read so much but bettering my head with different weight pills and which twist is best etc

Any help would be great.

Cheers

[happyhunter]

.223 for fox, your .17 for the bunnies

[parkyboy]

.223 for fox, your .17 for the bunnies

what he said ......Hugh.

[pork chop]

^{first thoughts as said a 223 will do what you want or you could go 22 hornet}

^{to be fair any cf from hornet up will do}

[colin jalland]

^{first thoughts as said a 223 will do what you want or you could go 22 hornet}

^{to be fair any cf from hornet up will do}

.223 would be great but if you can .243 then you can use it on anything you want without buying another cal !!!

[pork chop]

I've used a 243 on crow through to fallow.not had it too long but its does seem a very versatile round

[Blacknsilver]

I do have a couple of opportunities to possibly do some deer stalking so the .243 wound tick the boxes. But these days are few are far between. I looked at the .204 then the 22.250 but like I say it's just sometimes to much info and there is no substitute for actually using the rifle. Pros and cons to them all really.

Not looked at the .22 Hornet. That could throw another spanner in the works lol but at the mo I am doing the research and so far enjoying shooting the HMR. Have had two badly split cases that resulted in them not ejecting and getting stuck. Relitivly easy to remove. On closer inspection I had 8 split cases but only two that got stuck. All out of a 50 box of Remingtons.

Hence looking for another calibre which will do both if it turns out the the hmr carrys on being a concern.

[pork chop]

that's why i said any cf will do what you want,choosing one could drive you half mad.you can keep it simple and stick to a 223 plenty of rifles and ammo and its an excellent round

me i use 22 hornet 204 22br 243 and 6.5x47

[rhhudson]

Id go with 22-250, flat shooting, wide variety of factory guns and amunition, low recoil.

 

awesome calibre.

[colin jalland]

The 22-250 is a great rifle very flat shooting ,are you intending on doing any range work ?if you are go for a fast twist .223 as with all high velocity foxing type rounds (55g .243 ,50g .22-250 40g .204 ) your barrel life is very short .

[SWShooter]

Find the post on 17hmr , theres many a good reason not to get one , better with a .22lr , Ive used one for years , shot 1000`s of rounds and bunnies and never an issue, also go for .243 or better still .260 then you will be set up legally for Red deer if you decide to go after them and of course they stop foxes as well.

The .204 Ruger is also an amazing varmint caliber to consider.

[gbal]

B'n's: your quandry is one most have to deal with...the advice you get helpseg Pork Chop -s quite right-almost any cf wll do.

But you need to consider YOUR individual shooting too. I get the impression you do not want to stretch range much....250 yards?-and that is sensible,and may be limited anyhow by your permissions. It is in general a decent limit for fox and rabbit.....with potentially very high success rates.

 

OK,numbers-it's a bit like golf-you need to know-or have a savvy caddy-what each tool will do--not too complex in your situation though,but I'll add some data- the notion that "flat shooting'is a big deal needs some common sense.You will see too,that sometimes,there is indeed a range of performance...usually due to differences in comercially loaded (factory) ammo- it's not all the same... data is drop/drift/energy in 10 mph wind;200 zero (a 150 or 100 zero changes things a bit but the comparisons hold:

 

I'd be a bit wary of the 22Hornet-it's getting marginal on fox,and can be mediocre as 'flat enough shooter",even below 175 y:

 

Hornady 35gVmax@ 3100 100y +2.8/2.9/401 200 0/13.5/197 300 17/36/99

Nosler 40g Bal Tip@2850 100 2.2/1.5/530 200 0/6.4/381 300 10.4/15.8/268

 

The Hornady load is poor,the Nosler would just about do to 175 yards....fox marginal (key issue is the 'BC-ballistic coefficient" of the bullet-it's low/very low in Hornet-improves with calibre and bullet weight-but you don't need special knowledge of this..yet). Note how wind drift is the real limiter (and can't be measured accurately all the way out to target- so errors almost inevitable...distance can-laser.)

 

223: an excellent all round choice (as is/was the prior 222-the 223 is more versatile-due to heavier bullets and crucially those fast twist barrels that you've been reading about.A 1/12 won't stabilise heavy bullets,a 1/8 will,and still handle the lighter well-so 1/8 for flexibility-not every rifle offers the full choice.)

 

Hornady 40vmax@3800 100 +.9/1.2/937 200 0/5/677 300 5.5/12/479

Federal 69 SMK @2950 100 +1.8/1/1070 200 0/4.3/850 300 8.1/10.3/665

 

22-250

Fed Nos BT 40@4150 100 .6/.9/1155 200 0/4/870 300 4.2/9.5/645

Fed Nos BT 55 @ 3680 100 .9/.9/1292 200 0/4/1003 300 5.2/9.2/770

Excellent,but a bit too much maybe

243

Hornady 58 vmax@3750 100 .8/.9/1409 200 0/4/1090 300 5/9.2/833

Fed 70Nos BT @3450 100 1/.8/1505 200 0/3.4/1220 300 5.5/8/980

even more so....

 

OK,sorry about the ballistic data,but it can't all be avoided.....I hope you can see that there is but little gain in "flat" shooting if ranges are say,250y (and not much can cope well enough with wind above 10mph)....what going up in calibre does is increase energy considerably-and range a little,but you simply do not need more energy than the 223 delivers for fox...

 

You will be shooting relatively sensible ranges (up to 250y);you are aware of backstop and safe shot issues...deer seem an unlikely opportunity (they deserve a proper cartridge,anyhow-though the 222 on up was much used in Sotland,effectively for roe-bigger deer need 243 and up,by any criterion).

Ok,why not a 243-well,it's too much for fox and esp rabbit-too powerful,loud and recoils a bit more than is helpful ( you tend not to see bullet strike) other than for deer,you would be overgunned,and the 22/250 probably is similar for your current varminting.

 

223 offers good performance,for varmints;I'd not let wide ammo choice influence me unduly-you won't use most,but some choice in bullet weight can help a bit... (note the data suggests a few differences,but relate these to your field conditions...)

 

I very much liked the 17Rem for 250y rabbits,but it isn't so reliable on fox-so not included...

 

You should have a decent choice of rifle-all the above are 'popular'cartridges...and rightly so (PPCs etc are not needed,for your shooting,nor are Ackley Improved etc some factory ammo will be adequate,at least..1in 8 223 will not disappoint,and have some flexibility.

Back in the day,I had 222(and 17rem) and 243-the 243 was almost never used for varminting-it was simply never needed,and too much mostly-though it was effective! There simply was no 250 shot at vermin that could not be taken with the 222,with less fuss all round. Modern 223 a little more so.

 

While keeping it simple,match your choice to your shooting-and if stalking becomes a viable option,buy another suitable rifle then-it need not be new,or cost a lot...as ever though,try before you buy.

Above all,do become familiar with your chosen cartridges performance-and don't wear it out trying for an elusive very small paper 'group' size....( or an extra 50 fps-it just does not matter,though it does for 1000 y shooters)...instead,learn the wind,fairly easy for 250y.....fairly easy....and done by shooting,which should be no headache! Enjoy.

 

gbal

[Blacknsilver]

 

A massive thanks for such a great write up. Some really good points and lots to think about.

 

The .223 seems like the 'right choice'

My permission is large with good back stops and with oppertunties for plenty longer range shots. I would like to stay sensible and shoot with in my capabilities for the moment. Don't get me wrong if mr crow presents its self at 300 yards I would like to take a shot.

 

What sort of barrel life are we looking at for a 1-8 twist in the .223?

 

cheers

[munkjack]

Ahh your on the slippery slope ? There's no do it all calibre .223 is a great vermin round with good barrel life but no good for medium to large deer this side of the north border Which is a progression most rifle shooters like to make.

I currently have .22lr .17hornet .22.250 &.308win on my ticket for my needs this is all I need it's taken me many years and a lot of dollar to get there good luck with your quest it's a bug but an awesome bug?

[gbal]

Fine-300y isn't really a 'long shot',but it needs good wind reading,and so on,and a skill that some shooters don't have. Do-able though. It's beyond that ,that things get a bit hairy.....

 

Barrel life-well, with sensible moderate use (no screaming hot loads-which give very little more anyhow,or rapid fire etc) several thousand rounds. Maybe 5 thou-experience varies,because 'shot out' means different things-high volume shooters may be target oriented,where a slight worsening loses points; for a varminter at 300y,.1 moa worse won't even be noticed.

And it depends on the barrel-stainless custom barrels last longer than factory ones-but there is a very good trade of with factory spec performance 223s and barrel life-probably about as goodas it gets....no free lunches,and the hotter items nibble away barrelsa bit faser-or a lot faster ( 2k for a hot 243 would not be unknown). I'd guesstimate 4 thou for the 223,maybe more quite acceptably,before significant drop off...others might have shot out a 223/222 class-I haven't.

You won't get significantly better for anything close to the performance. ( I rather liked the USshooter who reckoned he spent $2500 on ammo,per $250 barrel.....(stuff is cheaper there,but you get the drift!)

 

Not to add,but I didn't mention the newish 204,which is pretty close to good 22/250 varmint performance-40 vmax@3900 for 300 5/8 and 625 ft lb.....but like all the fast ones (17 rem etc) it cannot sustain it (that low BC again) so by 500y its 28/25,which is way better than many,but the crucial point is,simply too much wind error to be really useable-a miss by 5 inches v a miss by 8 inches.... is a miss!

All the super velocity numbers suffer this fate,better-certainly,though not significant up to 300y,and beyond 500-they all struggle too much,though not all are equal,of course (the heavy 223 bullets are viable-if not one of the best option (which might be Lazzeroni Phantom-6.5 120g @3312,but still 30/14 at 500-that can miss-there are no Lazers!!..the 260 with 120 is 42/21-which can miss even easier).

 

By the time you've worn out a 223 barrel,you'll be writing this yourself,and choosing accordingly for the next one-which might well be a direct replacement.

Accuracy of course is highly desireable,but for varminting,most of the 224s are comparable-and individual rifles vary a bit. Customs are a tad better,top reloading ditto-but it's not a huge margin 'in the field"-see that as future fun.

 

g

[Blacknsilver]

Nice one guys. Again great advice.

 

With the family members and friends I have that could offer the Deer Stalking there is no shortage of rifles in there cabinets. I will just stick to the long range rabbit and fox capable rifle. Further down the line a dedicated Deer rifle will be bought if that's the route I go but for now happy learning with the newer style of shooting.

[Vermincinerator]

223 is a great choice but unless you intend to do some target work at long range stick with the 1:12 twist

A fast twist 223 is reloaders territory if you want to use it to its full potential, unless you can find a good supply of heavy bullet ammo and then it is going to be match bullets, not the more suitable expanding varmint type.

 

Ian.

[gbal]

B'n's: Ian raises a very good point-for which thanks,too.

 

There have tobe soe comproises,hence my emphasis on your typical shooting-and it looks as if being able to get and use bllets up to 60/64 g ay well be the coproise (and thus a 1/12 fits that bill).

Though there are well over a hundred 223 factory loads,and maybe a few more European ones, Ian has identified a real gap-the out and out varmint designs are at the lighter end....and the actual availability in UK needs checking too-Black hills eg do a 60vmax varmint,(Edgar bros),and Nosler a 60g,but whether these are actually imported,I don't know. Others may well be able to advise.

 

The comon 69 SMK- 77 SMK ,are factory loaded by BHills,and several others do a variety of similar 69,75.77 g boat tail hollow point Match bullets (including Rem,Win,Nosler,Hornady,Federal....so likely UK available,but are not specifically designed as varmint bullets.

 

The 1/12 lighter varmint bullets will be effective,of course, the compromise is limited performance if you want to stretch out......it's not mandatory,but you might begin to see why many take up hand loading for longer varmint use,or gong bonging at 600+y.....(or another calibre,which ay offfer more choices...).

g

[Blacknsilver]

The knowledge on here is impressive. I really can't say much more than that. I am sure I will be along with a few more questions when I have looked into a few of the points mentioned.

Cheers guys.

[soother223]

223 will be a great choice! Closely followed by 204 Impo.

All I'll say is these days I generally take my 17 hornet out most of the time! Nice and quiet! Firepower isn't everything! The 243 rarely comes out of the cabinet these days..

Plus I'm developing a bit of a soft spot for 17 cal ... Don't even think about comparing the Hmr with any cf's!

[David Hancock]

Specifically on your point about North Wales "not allowing" .17HMR for fox. Interesting !!!!!!

 

I had the same issue with a particular FEO at Essex who advised me "he would not allow" this calibre on my ticket upon renewal. The Home Office Guidelines allow .17HMR to be conditioned for fox. Said FEO is no longer with Essex - unrelated.

 

Essex then changed their policy - when asked to clarify the point by BASC - and it is now allowed and had previously been on my FAC for 12 years with both Met and Suffolk. It is regularly featured in shooting magazines by renowned fox control practitioners.

 

In my experience, .17HMR is a humane and effective frangible calibre from 40- 90 yards with headshots. I respect other people have their own rightful opinions. Look at the exit of a 4inch pine fence post at 75 yards if you want to see the effect.

 

I sold my .17HMR three years ago due to poor ammunition and I lost trust in the calibre. The issue is still with us and a certain manufacturer needs to sort it out and stop the BS. All calibres suffer windage. I loved my Weihrauch HW66 Jadg-Match though.

 

.22LR is effective for fox up to75 yards I would estimate.

 

22-250 for me is too loud and .243 too much. You also have .17 Rem - limited ammunition, 17 Hornet - interesting, .204 - purchased a semi custom which came with a barn door and it still missed and .20Tac if you hand load. Etc, Etc, Etc.

 

Personally, my fox rifle is a Howa .223 1-12 twist which as two colleagues on UKV will attest shoots very nice groups with 40gn Hornady, 50gn Norma, 53gn Hornady Vmax and 55gn Federal and Sako Gamehead.

 

It's a lucky rifle.

 

Good luck with your choice.

[gbal]

The knowledge on here is impressive. I really can't say much more than that. I am sure I will be along with a few more questions when I have looked into a few of the points mentioned.

Cheers guys.

The US site "Accurate Shooter" is a great source,obviously US oriented and 'serious' shooters,but always worth consulting-there are various cartridge sections,and good summaries of what's what.

g

[dave thorniley]

some great advice guys, getting your first c.f. is like a diabetic going in a candy store, but I,d say if its your first c.f. rifle for fox and vermin, I would go for a 223 rem nice to shoot barrel life great, tons of ammo choice and fairly cheap, learn your craft then in a year or two go for something else, 223 rem all the time blacknsilver I hope you get a good un then enjoy. regards dave.

[Alycidon]

Specifically on your point about North Wales "not allowing" .17HMR for fox. Interesting !!!!!!

 

I had the same issue with a particular FEO at Essex who advised me "he would not allow" this calibre on my ticket upon renewal. The Home Office Guidelines allow .17HMR to be conditioned for fox. Said FEO is no longer with Essex - unrelated.

 

Essex then changed their policy - when asked to clarify the point by BASC - and it is now allowed and had previously been on my FAC for 12 years with both Met and Suffolk. It is regularly featured in shooting magazines by renowned fox control practitioners.

 

In my experience, .17HMR is a humane and effective frangible calibre from 40- 90 yards with headshots. I respect other people have their own rightful opinions. Look at the exit of a 4inch pine fence post at 75 yards if you want to see the effect.

 

I sold my .17HMR three years ago due to poor ammunition and I lost trust in the calibre. The issue is still with us and a certain manufacturer needs to sort it out and stop the BS. All calibres suffer windage. I loved my Weihrauch HW66 Jadg-Match though.

 

.22LR is effective for fox up to75 yards I would estimate.

 

22-250 for me is too loud and .243 too much. You also have .17 Rem - limited ammunition, 17 Hornet - interesting, .204 - purchased a semi custom which came with a barn door and it still missed and .20Tac if you hand load. Etc, Etc, Etc.

 

Personally, my fox rifle is a Howa .223 1-12 twist which as two colleagues on UKV will attest shoots very nice groups with 40gn Hornady, 50gn Norma, 53gn Hornady Vmax and 55gn Federal and Sako Gamehead.

 

It's a lucky rifle.

 

Good luck with your choice.

Does it just perform, matches single shot full customs out to 300 yards which was as far as we could test.

 

22.250 is for me a superb killing caliber BUT is not as accurate as many similar but less powerful rounds such as Davids factory Howa 223. 20 plus years ago I had a Mannlicher Varmint that frankly was very poor accuracy wise, a friend here had an Ackley that he shot the barrel out looking for a decent load. He re tubed to 6BR and it now shoots in the .2s.

 

Distances in those Welsh mountains can get stretched, I would stay with 223 or 204 then if deer look like featuring in future add a 6.5mm of some sort.

 

A

[ChrisF]

My Hornet does 3000fps with a 40gr vmax bullet and thats with the barrel shortened to 20 inches , it runs a MAE 22mag suppressor , and I love it , its shoot a big goat out at 325yds , BUT that was really too far , but it did the business , the only thing I have a problem with is the factory magazine does not allow the 40gr load to fit .

 

I would sell the 17hmr , and replace with a 22lr rifle , then the next step would be a 222 or a 223 , in a rifle that has a scaled action , ie a Sako or a CZ527 or maybe the new Howa , get a nice rifle in 222 or 223 , the reason I say 222 , is you have a lot of older nice rifles in 222 for sale in the UK , so you should not dismiss this round from your search .

Also start reloading for the centerfire.

And that is enough to get started on , once you have more experience you can look at a rifle in a bigger cal , ie 308 class and up ( 6mm, 6.5, 7 etc ) , as it will be a more informed choice my then .

With the 222/223 get the barrel chopped to 20 inches and run a MAE SS can on it .