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Building an ultra-long range SGC-legal 12bore fox load.


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I've been quite struck by the claims around the Cheddite 100metri 12 bore cartridge and am pondering (as they seem to be impossible to find in shops) on ways of making an equivalent legal homeload.

 

Essentially, the 100metri's supposed to deliver a slowed spread of shot to give a 40yd pattern at 100m due to 'double wadding'.

 

post-1450-0-78195700-1450017177.jpg

Full detail here: http://www.chedditeitaly.com/en/prodotti_det.php?id_cartuccia_sel=117&id_animale=10

 

I'm thinking of trying the double-wadding (the pic looks as though a cup wad has been reversed over the pellets); and wondering if there could be other ways of slowing the shot's spread from a conventional wad - such as making it 'sticky' (but not too sticky!) with. say, sticky grease.

 

Anyone played with these ideas?

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Buffer powder was used a lot in old heavy goose loads to achieve what your talking about but 100 metres is a long way .IMO it'd be easier (although more exspensive ) to use hevi shot or hw13 instead of lead as it throws a much tighter pattern and is harder so doesn't distort like lead does when fired .

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Tricky one, it could be argued that even sticky grease is bonding the shot into a single projectile, thats if it held after being fired. I think it might be more productive trying to find a suitable wad for reversal, interesting idea but easier to obtain and better suited tools for the job

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According to a thread on pigeonwatch, the lower wad is a Gualandi Bior and the top one is an inverted Gualandi Turbo. Gualandi wads are readily available from Siarm.com in Italy if you want to try rolling your own.

 

As bigyin says, buffer material is the other thing to try (and much safer than grease!). These are made of polyethylene or polycarbonate granules.

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I have shot a fox at 30 yards with 5 shot, took 3 before it was subdued. You could maybe go to 40 with BB or similar and tight choke. Anything over that just use a decent centerfire, far less chance of wounding.

 

A

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I have shot a fox at 30 yards with 5 shot, took 3 before it was subdued. You could maybe go to 40 with BB or similar and tight choke. Anything over that just use a decent centerfire, far less chance of wounding.

 

A

 

I've never tried to shoot a fox with a shotgun.

I've never even tried a shotgun on a hare, because I've seen that go horribly wrong every time I've ever seen such a shot.

However, this idea looks like it may have potential. I'll be trying it on paper first..

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I reckon that anything that binds the shot together, like wire, grease, wax or hot glue might be at risk of making the ammunition section 1. I think that the Cheddite cartridge gets away with it because it's 'just a shot cup'.

I tend to agree, less,possibly, for grease (which I visualise as coming apart in the high speed airflow) - I think as long as the shot is able to start spreading once it's left the barrel, the load is fine - there's nothing defining how fast it must spread; but if you do something that will totally prevent spread, that'd be a law bŕeaker.

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Even if you had a shell which delivered a lethal pattern at 100m, you still have to hit the fox, with no sights. Unless you actually are George Digweed I don't think it is a reliable prospect.

 

It sounds like it has the same problems as a combination gun with a smallbore rifle barrel, I don't think I would take a shot at small game with open sights any further than the shotgun barrel would kill it anyway.

 

I would be very interested to see pattern tests of the cheddite shell, I have a feeling that the pattern would be rather unreliable, I bet the range at which the wad "flips over" would be variable, leading to wildly different patterns between shots at a given range, could also give the old classic "cartwheel pattern" if the wad got caught up in the shot column.

 

How about cut shells: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3M46XVfVOU looks mildly suicidal to me, and I've no idea if they are section 2 legal (seems doubtful) but you wouldn't have to be in possession of them for more than a minute! ;-)

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Matt,the Cheddle 100 metri looks a bit longer (understandably-if its got another wad in there).

Will it fit you chamber?

 

Cheddle have made some "interesting' shotgun cartridges-including different shot sizes mixed-which may have worked OK ,but suggest somewhat cranky thought processes tome-eg a skeet load (distance around 16-22 yards) where the sixze 10 get there a little ahead of the faster 91/2 size....err,why ----given runs of several hundred (nay thousand) straight skeet hits are recorded.

An illustrative book on shotgun patterns is "Shotguning-the myth and the science' bob Brewster as I recall)....some great experiments on shot columns-revealed by shooting at a long target towed behind a lorr (simples but ingenious).Of course,the pattern is of the shot that arrive at any moment (relative to bird speed) and the others hit later...the pattern on a moving target is not anything like as dense as the standard 40 pattern plate,where all the shot registers,if at slightly different times. Very revealing,and eye opening for bird shooters...though it also adds an increased probability of ''hit with some part of the shot column"-but noway all of it-static pattern is bogus,save for head/tail on shots...

I have to asume that you are contemplating a stationary target -Dogge's points are very salient-in which case the spread from a modest rifle would be better. They can't all group below .25,despite one offs.

The drop of shotgun pellets will also be considerable- individual BCs must be very modest indeed.

I've not sen any reorts on long range use of Cheddle-Pigeon Watch and the like 'experts' seem to say 'been there ,tried that,waste of time',but detail is missing,perhaps like the shots. Some attempts were no doubt from the Heath Robinson ballistic collection ( Dum,dum and even dumber).

I share your misgivings about stretching shotguns on sentient quarry- I imagine there are 20+pricked wildfowl for ever one downed at 60 yards,or 100 at 70y with a 10mag.

 

gbal

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I tend to agree, less,possibly, for grease (which I visualise as coming apart in the high speed airflow) - I think as long as the shot is able to start spreading once it's left the barrel, the load is fine - there's nothing defining how fast it must spread; but if you do something that will totally prevent spread, that'd be a law bŕeaker.

Actually, I would be more concerned that grease might burst the barrel. Although a proper grease will be thixotropic (shear thinning), the resultant lubricant in the barrel will be non-compressible. This would risk a ring bulge, or at worst a burst barrel.

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unless my sums are wrong (and they very well could be) even with number 2 shot (the largest cheddite do) and a generous muzzle velocity of 1500fps the pellets are leaving with about 21 ft/lbs of energy so I can't imagine they will have a lot left at 100m ? I'm not sure I'd want to take on a fox at that distance with that load?

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In an earlier post,I suggested some drop of shot-it's 5 inches for BB at 100y given a 1260 fps launch-not a serious issue with some spread. ( 1 and a half ounce will have a good few-didn't count.)

 

More criticalIy, I suggested fairly considerable drop off in vel/energy etc due to 'modest BC" (ballistic coefficient)

 

tackb makes a clear case,and here are some more figures to ballpark the issue:

 

BB at 1260 fps muzzle.....each pellet retains ft lb energy at 50 y 11.4 and 60 y 9.5

2shot 1330 fps muzzle 50 yards 6.1 and 60 yards 4.9 ft

 

(just a reminder,the 22rf has around 70 ft lbs at 100yards,and isn't reckoned a fox basher-I don't know how many such pellets would strike within vital fox zones at such a distance....and the cumulative effect is most unlikely a simple add up-ten minors do not a major make). Not to deny a centered load of buckshot at 25 yards was not a serious risk to roe life. Or 6 shot to a 10 yard fox.

 

Beginning to see why these might be selling just like hot cakes for foxing,they may have a similar effect (ballistically).

:-)

 

gbal

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If it's any use York Guns used to stock these, certainly did about a year ago because I bought a few. The price was effing eyewatering though.

 

What a relief to hear of someone who's actually handled them , I was beginning to think they were the unicorn of shotgun cartridges! Did they appear to work as claimed?

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unless my sums are wrong (and they very well could be) even with number 2 shot (the largest cheddite do) and a generous muzzle velocity of 1500fps the pellets are leaving with about 21 ft/lbs of energy so I can't imagine they will have a lot left at 100m ? I'm not sure I'd want to take on a fox at that distance with that load?

This is what i thought , i remember the last fox i shot with a 12g 53 grams of 3 shot ok he was 50 yards - too far ! He needed a 2nd shot . That was about 10 years ago , from then on and now i only use cf .

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This is what i thought , i remember the last fox i shot with a 12g 53 grams of 3 shot ok he was 50 yards - too far ! He needed a 2nd shot . That was about 10 years ago , from then on and now i only use cf .

 

As I've said, I've never used a shotgun on anything that didn't have wings. I have never seen such use end well.

 

If these cheddites are advertised to work at 100m; I think it's a safe bet they'll working at 50m. And they'll not have the centrefire danger template.

 

that is...if they work as advertised :)

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Different approach.

 

If Charlie is visiting regularly and in an unsafe enviroment for cf then use a live catch cage trap baited with kitty cat or similar. Human despatch then becomes easy...and safe.

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Getting lead to pattern consistently at longe range is the problem (no where near 100m) .i still think hevi shot or hw13 is your best option and in as big a shot size as you can get but be careful if you do try it as hevi shot is harder than even steel

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What a relief to hear of someone who's actually handled them , I was beginning to think they were the unicorn of shotgun cartridges! Did they appear to work as claimed?

 

They did actually, I shot some rabbits with the old Remington 11-87 at what I would have said (from memory) was about 75m with relative ease. They came in boxes of 10 and were about £1.50 a shot

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