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Cartridge options for 75/80gr Amax


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The .224 Amax in 75gr or 80gr along with the new 69gr and 77gr tipped Matchings seem to be great bullets for longer range varminting where BC is important.

 

If you were looking to build a rifle specifically for longer ranges in .224 cal with these bullets in mind then what case would you use to push them?

 

Ive read a lot about .223, .223AI, 22BR, 22-250 and a few others but I was hoping we might create a thread with a comprehensive discussion of the pros and cons of each choice as well as barrel length options. It would be good to hear of real world data that you guys have from your respective cases. Im leaning towards 22BR with an 8 twist but then again would it really be so bad to use a standard .223? Also, is 8 twist enough for sure?

 

There seems to be quite a lot of long range shooters using the .224 heavies so hopefully this will be an interesting and informative discussion. :)

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What do you want it to achieve?

Maximum velocity?

Does the gun have to mag feed?

Long or short barrel life?

 

It really depends on what you want.

Personally i wan to build a 22br in the near future because it has a great reputation for accuracy. Mag feeding can be an issue.

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What do you want it to achieve?

Maximum velocity?

Does the gun have to mag feed?

Long or short barrel life?

 

It really depends on what you want.

Personally i wan to build a 22br in the near future because it has a great reputation for accuracy. Mag feeding can be an issue.

 

Accuracy at distance would always be my priority, everything else are just things to consider but never a single motivating factor in choosing, of course they will be factors to consider, in particular barrel life. Its no good if you only get 500 shots before the barrel is toast! ;)

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Maybe it would help to keep the essential desiderata a bit separate from the 'minor'considerations-all may be legitimate,but without the former,the latter are non events.( as 6.5 Shooter implies):

 

The first criterion is to get the bullet there. "There" has to be specified-eg distance,and size (xbull or varmint vitals-claearly it will vary with target discipline and quarry).

 

The second criterion is accuracy and precision. Accuracy is where the first shot strikes,precision is where any further shots strike,relative to the first-"grouping". For field shooting,accuracy dominates-it's a one shot business.This is also true for many target disciplines,though not perhaps all.Note the implications-magazine feed might be unimportant,though it's a matter of smithing cost anyhow.

 

The third criterion is target effectiveness. The target shooter merely needs a clean hole in the target,but the field shooter needs humane kills. In both,bullet selection is a factor,but so is appropriate bullet availability-there may not be an acceptible bullet-yet.)

 

OK,those seem to me the key issues,as absolute criteria...and they tend to subordinate lots of what become detail/option (as in magazine example). Personal preferences come in-after all,the shooter is paying,but a focus on what must be helps.Indulge thereafter if you must. Cost too is in this category.

Legitimate focussed criteria will vary,but stating them will obviate a lot of 'it depends' ...yes it does,but let's deal with that by specifying objectives,and how to achieve them.

 

I had thought to separate target and field uses-on the grounds that it's hard to see why anyone would chose to shoot 22 cf as a serious target option-but not everyone is serious target competition oriented,or has the free choice. Anyhow,the three criteria above clearly allow the distinction,and it's essentially terminal effects that separate target/field (or arbitrary rules etc-again,not central to the cartridge choice,but has 'allowed to use' implications-Amax excepted,perhaps-as it's specified,though not mandated.) :-)

 

Bring it on.

 

gbal

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My initial post talks about varminting George.

 

My hope was that the discussion would lean towards what is being used for longer range varminting, typically these shots we see and hear about over 500yds towards rabbits, corvids, possibly even fox.

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Yes,Al- I thought probably so-my last para was intended to nudge target shooters slightly away-except that the two of the 'must have criteria are common,its only the 'terminal effect' that differs,and if someone who did not care to shoot live quarry had developed a nonetheless suitable long range small gong clanger,then it seemed on balance worth including- it might need a bullet change.

I hhope you don't get too many "you need a 6mm" either-not that it's necessarily wrong,(how could a high BC 6mm be) but it's slightly off topic ..( cf "What do England need?"- "Dan Carter" - is an illegitimate answer,though 'a Dan Carter clone' is permissible (not neccessarily correct,of course without 14 other All Back clones).

 

OK wasted too many words already-so here is a marker:

 

The cartridge that set and met the effective criteria for 224 long range varminting was the 22 Middlestead.

 

Others came close,but 'overall' the necked down 243 case did it,meeting all the criteria-so I don't need to repeat them-without much exotica/cost etc etc. A later contender was the 22Cheetah (necked Rem 308 BR -a short 308W). The 224 Clark (necked 7x57 ), proprietary Weatherby and so on ,offered no gain,but more pain on the minor spin off criteria.

 

So, I propose-the 22 Middlestead,with appropriate fast twist and 80 g Amax .

 

The 'old' 22 Middlestead track record is as good as any,better than most-a stable 80g Amax just improves near optimally.

 

( Those who see fit to push pressures beyond SAAMI known safe zones might opt also for another faster(?) Cheetah,in the small primer full 308w Palma case;and you could Middlestead the Palma case,for the same ,and Ackley either.)

 

gbal

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OK George, heres one to keep you busy ;)

 

Would the additional capacity of the Middlestead really make that much different to killing rabbits at 500yds+ versus a 22BR and would the shorter barrel life and additional powder/recoil be worth the effort?

 

As you so often say, the last few hundred fps rarely makes much real world difference. :)

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Hmmm....I'd agree about 150 fps,for the same bullet (BC really),beyond a few hundred yards-always assuming sufficient velocity for stability and terminal performance. Could the 22BR keep up with the 80g bullet? Won't be much in it.

 

I think even the sound arguments for the 22/250 have to conceed that if/when a suitable bullet for the 243 comes along,then it wins-or at least gets a draw!) the BR's have to be in the mix too-the 6 will ace the 243 (in accuracy..)...the 22BR may edge the 22/250.....?

 

Specifically on the 22BR v 22Middlestead-it might be down to individual differences.....I have just not seen performance data,or UK field use,for the fast twist 80g Middlestead. It may well be that hit % -in wind-makes it all a bit academic,as ballistics get close,and distances long.

 

"Worth it" is very subjective- (we recently had a criticism that 25p per 'fox' cartridge was expensive). I'd be inclined to say not worth it,overall-but if I did have to take about two thousand 800 yard varmint shots, there are better options than 224 cal. (6BR ?) :-)

 

g

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hi earlier on this year i got my .223 re- barreled with a 24 inch 1 in 8 twist to shoot 75 grain a-max or 77 grain TMK I done some testing with both bullets and found the TMK to be the most accurate,i have shot 6 inch steel plates out to 600y with no problems and rabbits out to 450y the 77grain TMK work well on vermin.

When getting my rifle re-barreled i looked into changing caliber 22br,22-250 while both of these can push the bullet faster i decided to stay with the .223 because i like to put a good few rounds through the rifle and barrel life of the other two is much shorter,other reason where i shoot i like to keep noise to a minimum and find very little recoil with the .223 i can spot my shots.

all the best

stephen

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One things for sure , id be prioritizing the sierras over hornady bullets , the differences in lotts from hornady has been quite shocking in some cases . The sierras seem better quality controlled and finished - eg jacket length / shape etc . Iv ran out of time now but will add more to this intersting thread soon . Atb guys.

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One things for sure , id be prioritizing the sierras over hornady bullets , the differences in lotts from hornady has been quite shocking in some cases . The sierras seem better quality controlled and finished - eg jacket length / shape etc . Iv ran out of time now but will add more to this intersting thread soon . Atb guys.

I agree completely. I've had a bad batch of 140g Amax in 6.5. I couldn't get them under 1" at 100yds. Changed to a different batch and they are consistently 0.25MOA.

 

I'm a big fan of Sierra. I'm running 77TMK through my 1:7 twist 223. Terminal results on vermin are excellent. It makes shots on rabbits around the 400 yard mark straight forward when compared to other cartridge/bullets bullet combinations I've used eg 50/55 SBK (223AI), 39g SBK (204) and 25g vmax (17 Rem).

Very capable out to 600 yards (and a little beyond) if the conditions are good.

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The .224 Amax in 75gr or 80gr along with the new 69gr and 77gr tipped Matchings seem to be great bullets for longer range varminting where BC is important.

 

If you were looking to build a rifle specifically for longer ranges in .224 cal with these bullets in mind then what case would you use to push them?

 

Ive read a lot about .223, .223AI, 22BR, 22-250 and a few others but I was hoping we might create a thread with a comprehensive discussion of the pros and cons of each choice as well as barrel length options. It would be good to hear of real world data that you guys have from your respective cases. Im leaning towards 22BR with an 8 twist but then again would it really be so bad to use a standard .223? Also, is 8 twist enough for sure?

 

There seems to be quite a lot of long range shooters using the .224 heavies so hopefully this will be an interesting and informative discussion. :)

At the end of the day Al choose a cartridge that gives you the warm and fuzzies. 223, 22BR, 22-250 etc all do the job. Some are faster improving ballistics but as a result have reduced barrel life.

If you shoot lots of rounds at vermin and targets then 223 would be a wise choice. If you are happy to throw on a new barrel sooner then look at a case that will give you more velocity which will improve the ballistics.

It's all a trade off. I spend much less time pouring over different cartridges. I just look at the requirements and jump.

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What made you choose to go standard .223 Simon?

Barrel life and ballistics. My 223 is a high volume vermin gun and plinker. 77 TMK at standard 223 speeds destroys the small cals/bullets I've used in the past (223AI 50/55g, .204 39g SBK and 17 Rem 25g Vmax). Superb consistency at ranges and in winds where the other setups I've mentioned were really struggling.

It does very well to 600 yds. Then I have 140g Amax.

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I have a fast twist 22-250, I chose this calibre mainly because my rifle was already chambered in it and hence didn't need a variation, I probably would have gone for 22BR otherwise, as long as it would mag feed reliably.

I had mine throated to use the the 75gr A-Max which was a mistake as they were totally crap, I fired about 100 trying to get it to group, different powders etc etc, nothing worked. I will no longer bother trying any Hornady bullets, they just don't seem to match the others for consistency.

Then I tried the 77gr TMK which were a revelation, grouped right from the start and have been really good out to well beyond 600 yards. The day before yesterday I had a first round cold clean bore kill on a rabbit at a tad over 500 yards, no wind though which I was very happy with.

I have also tried my old load with 55gr Blitzkings and H380, which are obviously much quicker and these also grouped really well, so I could use this load for lamping as it is much flatter at shorter ranges.

Overall I am really pleased with it.

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77 TMK are very unfussy for seating depth. 75 and 80 Amax didn't consistently group below 0.4MOA no matter what I did. I tested hundreds in the end. I then plugged in 77 TMK and it shot half the group size with very little work. I also had probably 30 thou + of seating which offered sub 0.3MOA. The optimum seating producing 0.2-0.25MOA.

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HI Al.

 

Depends on your whats at top of your list - performance or barrel life.

I have owned and run several 223 ;s with an 8 twist - each very good with Amax ( obviously pre TMK's) Accuracy was best at approx 2850 fps - unfortunately groups opened up significantly above 2900 fps.

 

I have had two 22.250's with tight twist custom tubes fitted. and shot literally hundreds of vermin above 500yrds with it. Personally - I prefer the extra velocity that the 22.250 gives over the 223 - It suits my type of shooting were I often "hold over" out to 350 yrds ( sometimes there is no time for dialling).

 

I found the 223 was too loopy for this sort of shooting and I didn't like it as a foxing rifle using the heavy lead. Therefore I had a seperate load - 55 grn SKB , which means another zero and different bullets - different powder ect ect

 

The 22.250 delivers the 75 grn pill faster than the 223 can launch a 55 grn bullet - it just make sense to me to have one rifle using one load and one bullet that can do it all. ..Another issue was the the 75 grn Amax ammunition was too long to fit in the bloody mag of my Tikka 223 - so it was single shot. ( I still have a 223 BTW and run 55 grn bullets - and its killed more foxes than any other rifle ive ever owned :) )

 

As far as what calibre - the 22.250 has a lot going for it - Quality Brass - Dies - and everything you need is so easy to get and usually a lot cheaper. It feeds feeds from the mag perfectly as you would expect. Accuracy and barrel life is not an issue - both my rifles have produced tiny groups and taken quarry at ranges above 700 yrds

 

The 22 BR is an other option - Accuracy is undoubtely there.. balance this against possible feed issues or having a single shot rifle.

 

 

Good luck with your choice

 

S

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The .224 Amax in 75gr or 80gr along with the new 69gr and 77gr tipped Matchings seem to be great bullets for longer range varminting where BC is important.

 

If you were looking to build a rifle specifically for longer ranges in .224 cal with these bullets in mind then what case would you use to push them?

 

Ive read a lot about .223, .223AI, 22BR, 22-250 and a few others but I was hoping we might create a thread with a comprehensive discussion of the pros and cons of each choice as well as barrel length options. It would be good to hear of real world data that you guys have from your respective cases. Im leaning towards 22BR with an 8 twist but then again would it really be so bad to use a standard .223? Also, is 8 twist enough for sure?

 

There seems to be quite a lot of long range shooters using the .224 heavies so hopefully this will be an interesting and informative discussion. :)

If building another 224 cal LR varmint rifle , for me iv had std 223rem / 223 ackley , for me there not quite pushing those heavys fast enough . But the BR and 22-250 definitely have a shorter barrel life as we all know . AND flatten out the trajectory and up the bc considerably. The compromise for these reasons above has to veer to the PPC / Higher fps than 223rem but not so much the short barrel life.. And an Ace in the accuracy department :) thats surely what most if not all precision varminters are after as we all know . Say a 22PPC using the new 69 TMK would really appeal to me . Using a probably 26 " plus barrel to get decent fps itd probably match or at least be fairly close fps wise compared to 22-250 & 22BR shooting the 77 TMK or 80 Amax . But at least be a step up in performance from 223rem for sure ! This has me thinking even more now :lol:

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If building another 224 cal LR varmint rifle , for me iv had std 223rem / 223 ackley , for me there not quite pushing those heavys fast enough . But the BR and 22-250 definitely have a shorter barrel life as we all know . AND flatten out the trajectory and up the bc considerably. The compromise for these reasons above has to veer to the PPC / Higher fps than 223rem but not the short barrel life.. And an Ace in the accuracy department :) thats surely what most if not all precision varminters are after as we all know . Say a 22PPC using the new 69 TMK would really appeal to me . Using a probably 26 " plus barrel to get decent fps itd probably match or at least be fairly close fps wise compared to 22-250 & 22BR shooting the 77 TMK or 80 Amax . But at least be a step up in performance from 223rem for sure ! This has me thinking even more now :lol:

 

There is nothing in it with regard to PPC and BR case capacity, will a 22PPC barrel really last any longer than a 22BR?

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Im not entirely sure either , id prefer the br over the 22-250 tho , anyone know the volume of these 3 cases roughly ? PPC BR & 250? It would be a lovely choice tho . If you had to choose one ! :)

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Water (H20) capacities of the likely cartridges,in gr:

 

223r 31.4

22PPC 33.6

6BR 39.4

22/250 44.6

243w 52.8

223WSSM 55

 

These have to be approximates-as chambering can vary a tad,as with 6mm/224 versions,and so on-but it gives a good idea of relative capacities.

 

Remember though,that actual performance is also based on efficiency-the fat shorties can be suprisingly efficient-the 6BR eg is quite close to 243w despite capacity gap... less so for PPCs ...223WSSM is less efficient,still very fast....so it's not a simple relationship.....

 

gbal

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Thanks george , i thought the BR and 250 had similar volume but obviously not . And the short magnum id completely forgotten about , i guess only a handful of people have tried it over here . Running hot would it even get to a grand barrel life ?

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