.223 Maximum Useful Range

[edchef]

Hello

Hope I am in the correct part of the forum

I own a .223 Winchester M700 SPS It has a (I believe) a 1- 12 twist and seems to handle bullets in the 50 -55 grain range very well

It is currently being used for paper punching and I have got the better of some very dangerous metal gongs , potatoes and onions up to 300 yards

Am I pushing my luck with it beyond 300 yards? Is my scope (S and B 2.5-12 x 56 mm L7 Reticle) and my general inability to shoot or see anything much beyond that distance, holding be back?

Your thoughts would be appreciated

Thanks

ED

 

[achosenman]

With that twist you are set up for short range TBH. I use a 223 as my preferred choice for several reasons.

However, it is chambered with a long throat and tight neck. The firing pin is bushed so I can push this hard. It's a Tac 30, built by Neil McKillop with a 23 inch 1 in 9 twist match barrel. For the long stuff beyond 350M (not yds) I launch the 70gn Berger VLD. If I get the winds right it's effective at over twice your range to date. The 70gn bullets are a world away from the 55gn class, but no 223 is the best that's out there. It's fun and doable, but stepping up to a 6mm 105gn capable cartridge will make your life so much easier.

 

ATB

[gbal]

Ed: the basic ballistics of a cartridge,bullet/load/barrel twist are fairly constant,but the individual accuracy of a rifle varies one to the next. You can only try your inanimate targets a bit further,but with 3 inch onions,you may well be reaching the limits of very consistent hits-that 1moa at 100y,and intrinsic rifle accuracy (say .75) is only one diminishingly relevant factor in hits.

Likewise scopes,you have to see the target clearly-25x would not be too much at 400y.

Of course,a tighter twist barrel and heavier (betterBC) bullets would help,but you have what you have,so edge out and see.....

The issue ultimately for all rigs is running out of performance (BC and velocity-so that drop becomes very large and variable-you can dialin of course for known distance (laser),but when drop starts to vary,you miss....

Even more so wind drift.....IF-and it is an a HUGE 'if'- you could read wind all the away from muzzle to target,allowing for all the nuances and variations-often quite substantial,then you could compute the windage clicks,as for drop.No one can-very experienced wind readers can get close enough often...that means an error of less than say 2mph,over the bullets flight...

 

Let's just have a peek at some 1 in 12 50g bullets....drop /drift in inches,10 mph wind

(SAAMI mvs,to give comparable data)...

 

Hornady vmax@3300 300y 7/11.5 400 21/22 500 46/37

 

Win Ball. S'tip @3410 6.5/11 20/21 43/36

 

Nosler B tip @ 3100 8/12.5 25/24.4 55/41.4

 

and a couple of 55g:

 

Hornady Vmax @3240 7/11 21.5/21 46/35

 

W in Ball. S'tip @ 3240 6.8/10.3 21/19.6 44.3/33

 

Nos Ball.Tip @3200 7/10.5 21.4/20 45.6/33.6

 

 

There really are not big differences to be had by bullet/velocity.....(Physics-BCs vary a little

 

More importantly,300yards is one thing and doable : as you have found,but 400 and 500 are a quite different

Three to four hundred yard doubles that tricky wind drift ball(istic) game! So your 2" error at 300y will still often give an onion hit,but your 4" 400y error will not......(by 500 it's 7 inches...)

 

Remember that is just the effect of your likely wind reading error-add in all the other certainties,even at minimum level (like the rifles moa grouping generously made pro rata-1/2 " at 100y ,2" at 400y-it is usually worse....) and all the rest,or lack of solid rest!

 

All this applies to any cartridge/rifle of course,but if you come into longer range targeting with this in mind,you will appreciate better why every shot will not bang/clang, as wind picks up,how far you can go is try and see....a 75g match bullet @2750 is 300y 8.6/8.4 and at 400 25/16 500 51/26,so there is no easy escape! ( 6mm 75@ 3400 6/8.6;18/16;37/27) and so it goes....adding a hot 150/200 fps trims a couple of inches approx-across the board,but isn't much of an answer either....Reading Wind Is. And you can do that as well with your current rifle as any other.Good shooting.

 

gbal

[247sniper]

Hi Edd,

 

With any form of long range shooting or short range for that matter there are two things to consider,

 

1) Deterministic values - Values you can determine and account for, like trajectory, spin drift etc.

2) None Deterministic - Values you cannot account for, the biggest one being the wind.

 

Let's take a quick look at the Determanistic values for a minute - trajectory can be easily accounted for, with modern laser range finders, GPS systems etc, muzzle velocities and accurate bullet BC's and precision rifle scopes, - range can be accounted for adjustments made and targets hit no probs at range, that why they are classed as Determanistic values.

 

No Deterministic - lets talk about the wind as it is probably the biggest value that makes us all miss our targets!

Wind is a massive subject tbh, basically, think of it as a fluid, an invisible fluid. It's mostly always there although you cannot see it, apart from the leaves, tress and foliage blowing around to give us "indicators", and so times there is mirage which can help.

 

Problems with wind.

- Different varying speeds

- Different varying directions

The wind can change completety in direction and speed multiple time throughout the flight path of the bullet.

Wind Gradient plays a part as well, here the bullet loop trajectory (arch of the bullet) can travel 20 or more feet above the line of sight, traveling up into higher winds then accounted or measured for.

 

I'd say continue pushing the range as far as you can mate, you will get out further then you are I'm Sure, but just remember that since wind drift/deflection cannot be excaclty predicted (None-Deterministic) the only thing we can do is try and manage the problem by minimizing it buy using technology, decent kit and most of all practice.

 

Steve

[Sherlock]

Hello

Hope I am in the correct part of the forum

I own a .223 Winchester M700 SPS It has a (I believe) a 1- 12 twist and seems to handle bullets in the 50 -55 grain range very well

It is currently being used for paper punching and I have got the better of some very dangerous metal gongs , potatoes and onions up to 300 yards

Am I pushing my luck with it beyond 300 yards? Is my scope (S and B 2.5-12 x 56 mm L7 Reticle) and my general inability to shoot or see anything much beyond that distance, holding be back?

Your thoughts would be appreciated

Thanks

ED

 

 

 

I also run a 223 with a 12 twist... Shooting a 55 grn SBK at 3400 fps.

I regularly take rabbits and crows beyond 400yrds.and this is quite doable and repeatable.

 

As anybody knows winds are the enermy, Shooting vermin at these ranges is dictated by how strong the winds are .

Simply put , if the winds howling, I wont shoot long range vermin using a light bullet in a 223 or my 17 rem.

 

It good to practice on steel even in windy conditions - it shows you just how much affect the elements have on little bullet as the range increases.... all those one hole groups that we all have photographed and tell people about , are but a pleasent memory when theres a gusting wind and 500 yrds between you and the target.

 

I think your scope probably will be holding you back TBH - IME , a 12 mag scope (however good the glass is) just isnt enough for small quarry at long range and ( Although I dont know) maybe the reticule in your S&B isnt ideal for longer range shooting.. ( the 3-12x 56 S&B I owned was far too thick)

 

I dont dont whether you dial the shots , but using a rangefinder and dialling is the most accurate method of getting first round hits as you increase the range. Holding over is at best a guestimate. The 223 - 450 yrds not a problem in good weather - windy conditions - take 200 yrds off that.

Tighter twist and big slow BC bullets will help with windage calls - but they are not the holy grail that some people seem to believe, misses are just as easy if the wrong info is used..

 

 

 

ATB

S

[edchef]

Chaps

Firstly - thank you all for your responses - all are very useful and informative

The .223 was my first centre fire rifle and I didn't give barrel twist rate a second thought when I bought it three years ago - still getting a great deal of pleasure from using it whether it's paper, metal or small furry things

I have realised that there is probably not much point in spending any money on it (other than maybe a more suitable scope)

Wind - yes, the bane of my life! - _ I will persevere!

I used to holdover but I am becoming more confident at dialling up now as I get a little bit more experienced

Regarding bullet weight - I do have a 6BR but that only performs well with bullets around the 85 grain - great fun at longer ranges

Again thank you all for your comments

Hopefully off to practice soon

Cheers

ED

[gunner]

I'd say continue pushing the range as far as you can mate, you will get out further then you are I'm Sure, but just remember that since wind drift/deflection cannot be excaclty predicted (None-Deterministic) the only thing we can do is try and manage the problem by minimizing it buy using technology, decent kit and most of all practice.

Steve

 

Ditto this - thanks steve . Tim