mole-e30 Posted April 6, 2015 Report Share Posted April 6, 2015 UKBRA 1000 Yard – Round 1 – Sunday 5th April 2015 Well, after having had the winter off Sunday saw the start of the season. The weather was kind and we had a great turn out with many new faces and many new guns. There was a nice spread of classes, with an increase Heavy Gun entry. The wind was light to start with, increasing during the day and switching, which caused some problems for the 10 shot heavy gun groups. 3 excellent groups from Sean Broxham in Light Gun, Bruce Lenton in Heavy Gun and Stuart Benson in Factory Sporter, well done to all Many thanks to all those that helped out, we had a lot to do with it being the first shoot and it went very smoothly. So to the results Light Gun Class 1st – Sean Broxham – 6.969” (average of 4 x 5 shot groups) 2nd – Mal Roberts – 6.993” 3rd – Jeanette Whitney – 7.123” Small Group – Sean Broxham – 3.669” Heavy Gun Class 1st – Bruce Lenton – 12.263” (average of 2 x 10 shot groups) 2nd – Les Prior – 14.254” 3rd – Simon Drake – 15.236” Small Group – Bruce Lenton – 9.015” Factory Sporter Class 1st – Nick Parkin – 11.755” (average of 4 x 5 shot groups) 2nd – Dale Almond – 14.448” 3rd – Alan Seagrave – 16.151” Small Group – Stuart Benson – 5.354” As usual, please click on the link below for full scores. https://www.dropbox.com/s/odfqgoi08nu0gup/UKBRA%201000BR%205th%20April%202015.pdf?dl=0 Next Shoot is Sunday 3rd May, come and have fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyw Posted April 6, 2015 Report Share Posted April 6, 2015 some good shooting there! Bruce you have listed the 100yd results not 1000yd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mole-e30 Posted April 6, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 6, 2015 Problem solved...... Just checking you were all paying attention Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcampbellsmith Posted April 6, 2015 Report Share Posted April 6, 2015 Bruce - What are these "Penalities"? It's not a term I've come across before. Thanks JCS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1967spud Posted April 6, 2015 Report Share Posted April 6, 2015 i can tell you all about them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mole-e30 Posted April 6, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 6, 2015 Bruce - What are these "Penalities"? It's not a term I've come across before. Thanks JCS It's for when you fail to hit the target......... 1 inch for every 100 yards for each missed shot, so at 1000 yards add 10" to the group for each shot not on target...... The board is 6' x 6' just to give you an idea of scale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyw Posted April 7, 2015 Report Share Posted April 7, 2015 i can tell you all about them 2 guns going in the scrap bin then? what happened? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1967spud Posted April 7, 2015 Report Share Posted April 7, 2015 when adding windage to my scope i apparantly forgot which is my left and which is my right i have it tattooed on my wrist now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meles meles Posted April 7, 2015 Report Share Posted April 7, 2015 The right wrist ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1967spud Posted April 7, 2015 Report Share Posted April 7, 2015 The right wrist ? ill have to look and report back.... ...yes the opposite one to the left wrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcampbellsmith Posted April 7, 2015 Report Share Posted April 7, 2015 Bruce - What are these "Penalities"? It's not a term I've come across before. Thanks JCS It's for when you fail to hit the target......... 1 inch for every 100 yards for each missed shot, so at 1000 yards add 10" to the group for each shot not on target...... The board is 6' x 6' just to give you an idea of scale. Penalty I can follow. Penalities is a made up word surely? Regards JCS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swarovski1 Posted April 8, 2015 Report Share Posted April 8, 2015 Smallest group just over 3.5 inches.wow thats incredible at 1000yds, what calibre ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbal Posted April 8, 2015 Report Share Posted April 8, 2015 Smallest group just over 3.5 inches.wow thats incredible at 1000yds, what calibre ? Smallest group just over 3.5 inches.wow thats incredible at 1000yds, what calibre ?Swaro, 6.5x284 according to the full data sheet on Bruce's 'drop box' link. Note too a 5.354 from a factory 6BR-and overall the consistency of some shooters-that's wind reading skill (more impressive really than one very small group,nice though those are-especially if the other two are good also.) Looks like wind was tricky pm for the heavy and sporter class. gbal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gun Pimp Posted April 8, 2015 Report Share Posted April 8, 2015 Wind was slightly stronger in the afternoon but, that's when Stuart Benson shot his 5.354 inch group with his 'out of the box' Savage 6BR. But really, it's not about 'wind reading' so much as 'wind beating' - the idea is to get your five shots off (or ten, in the case of heavy gun) before the wind changes. In other words, pick a condition and go for it! This is why the 6BR is a star - very little gun 'upset' so you can get 'em off really quick. Shots are not indicated after every shot - as in F Class - so there is little you can do in terms of wind reading. Once you've started a string, even if the wind changes, it's best to keep going. Note that Bruce's 10-shot small group in Heavy Gun was also shot with a 6BR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbal Posted April 8, 2015 Report Share Posted April 8, 2015 Vince,are most/all shooters now adopting this tactic- hope for (try to pick?) 15-20 seconds of steady wind and get off all your shots as fast as possible? I can see that puts gun handling back into the frame a bit,and advantages the light recoilers. It follows though,that extrapolating BR results to field shooting-where of course,it's very much more one shot then perhaps a considerable delay-is tenuous,in many ways.Not that comparisons either way are the point,never were. BR does I suppose emphasise precision over accuracy,Varminting rather the other way round.But then field shooting isn't at 1000y. How would you characterise the skill elements of this technique (shoot 'em fast) ? g Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gun Pimp Posted April 8, 2015 Report Share Posted April 8, 2015 Vince,are most/all shooters now adopting this tactic- hope for (try to pick?) 15-20 seconds of steady wind and get off all your shots as fast as possible? I can see that puts gun handling back into the frame a bit,and advantages the light recoilers. Yes George that's it. Although 5 minutes is allowed for a match, few will take longer than a minutes to get those rounds down range. The skill is in gun-handling - see my first and second groups - a 7.677 and a 17.625 - one shot dropped out of the group added ten-inches! Almost certainly due to a gun-handling error by trying to go too fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swarovski1 Posted April 9, 2015 Report Share Posted April 9, 2015 Remind me again why I havent got a 6mm br, can a 6mm br be made into a repeater cartrigde being an odd shape, what bullet and weight would this be or is this secret Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbal Posted April 9, 2015 Report Share Posted April 9, 2015 Swaro:can be done 6BR is a top cartridge for CISM shooting.Not a cheap game. Lapua and Norma produce superb ammo-think .3moa from the (expensive) box. Lapua use 90 and 105 scenars (moly or naked) Norma use 105 Berger LTB moly (which are a tad shorter to aid mag feed) My 30 BR worked fine-not exactly the same but the case is essentially the old 308x11/2 barnes,which is just that -a 308 cases cut to 1 1/2 inches. Short,yes-preceeding the later fashion for short/fat. It's not the most magazine friendly-nor is the 6BR-but some affordable actions are doable with good smithing(my 'guess' is that the cartridge is a bit tip heavy,with 105g on the end of a short case). 6BR is a fine mid range cartridge with genuine long range potential on a good low wind day.As Vince says,for competition group BR 1000y work,fast shots are the order of the day,and that is where the 'little' 6BR shines-it's back on target faster. Not sure if any 1000y BR rigs try to exploit magazine feed though.....might not even be so fast as a slick left feed right bolt....marginal,in terms of catching wind anyhow. It's also accurate enough in the field not to need a magazine back up shot,done right first time! :-) gbal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbal Posted April 9, 2015 Report Share Posted April 9, 2015 Thanks,VInce...I'll have to get some practice in..Les P was talking about 5 secs per shot ,after the first one. Might be counter productive for the very fine margins at 100y,where minor wind fluctuations are observable ...has it been been tried? What is interesting is that whatever technique is in vogue,the same shooters are up there,supporting a generic 'can shoot' factor in the mix. "..which age can not dispel".....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gun Pimp Posted April 9, 2015 Report Share Posted April 9, 2015 The big difference between 1000 and 100 yard benchrest? You can see your shot-holes at 100 yds. So, although we do 'run the gun' when a condition holds, it rarely holds long enough for a five shots. So, you wait and hope the condition returns but, if you run out of time you gotta aim-off - gripping in a big match! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbal Posted April 9, 2015 Report Share Posted April 9, 2015 Vince,lets add in the skill maybe-the difference 1000/100 yards is that at 100 yards you can see the bullet hole and your wind flags,so there is some correlation available if you are good enough to read your flags. In 1000y,you can't see bullet holes,neither are there enough flags to get detailed feedback on wind effects. There may be a complex ratio effect of wind/handling error,but not known. While a .1moa bullet hole shift is a groan at 100y,I suspect it would be a 'hooray' at 1000y. If,in a kind world,technology existed such that a ballistic calculation of wind effect could be made,and relayed to the shooter after the first shot-displaying eg green light if wind effect was within some preset tolerance (+/- .05inch,or .1 moa etc),then the strategy would be to fire anytime green was on.Unless physics changes (the ultimate cruel world) the result will be pleasing(at least within the set tolerances)if not immediately seen for 1000y. No green,no fire. Gun handling speed then is less critical,though of course you won't know how long green will stay on, or whether if it goes off,it will return.Odds are,you don't have to rush shots though for a couple of seconds saved. Seeing holes (at 1000y ) is a probable joy to be experienced only at the end of the relay-unless you have been too greedy in your tolerances,and run out of time (any distance-serves you right) ! Oh...and got your barrel too hot,stringing shots too close... Unlikely any season soon,though getting closer- if Red KItes can multiply,Cloned Kestrels could compute.)! (Diggle wind may resist maths,as it has done everything else except very good shooters.) Flags all the way to 1000y? see-literally- Raton New Mexico-and ponder. Practice remains the best,enjoyable option meanwhile. :-) gbal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gun Pimp Posted April 9, 2015 Report Share Posted April 9, 2015 The big problem with attempting to read the wind out to 1000 yds - the flags (unlike 100 yd benchrest) just aren't close enough to the bullet's flight to be meaningful. I've shot 1000 yd BR with the best in the world - at Hawks Ridge, North Carolina - and the strategy is just the same - shoot quick. I was shooting Bill Shehane's Heavy Gun (weighing 46lbs) - ten shots in about 30 seconds "Too slow!" was Bill's exclamation. It wasn't a 6BR either - something they call 30 Ackley - based on one of the Weatherby cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbal Posted April 9, 2015 Report Share Posted April 9, 2015 Absolutely,Vince-even if they were somehow inches from the bullets trajectory,just how the apparent (any US range with lots of flags) wind fluctuations in strength AND direction are to be aggregated is a serious challenge-skill and experience of that range will help. For 'applications in the field' , a couple of bits of sheep's wool fluttering on a fence wire won't really do.Shooting ranges are generally fairly level,and do not have random stands of trees,hedges,big rocks, broken walls,dips into gullies,or streams etc etc between muzzle and target,causing mini vortexes,upward/downward forces and fluctuating lateral displacements of your bullet.We just don't get what the kestrel says-7.7 mph from 4 o'clock.Well,we do,but the rest of the distance to target doesn't. HIts of course are still possible,even computable with good conditions (no rock and roll out there),maybe to 500y-given a target of appropriate tolerance- but way beyond,it's hit probability at best-ie what % of shots fired (no sight correction) will hit ? Here's what happens with a 308,175 g VERY GOOD conditions (wind accuracy +/- 1mph,range +/- 1 yard, 10 fps SD velocity..5 moa rifle/ammo: Hit % for 5 inch target 300y 100% 500y..90% 600y..71% 700Y..48% 800y..31% 900y..19% 1000y..11% 1200 4% 10inch 400y 100% 500y 100% 600y 98% 700 90% 800 75% 900y56% 1000y 36% 1200y 17% MEDIUM conditions(wind+/_2.5 mph,range +/- 10 yards, rifle/ammo,15fps vel,1moa rifle ammo: 5 inch target 300y 89% 500y 33% 600y 19% 700y 11% 800y7% 900y 4% 1000y 3% 1200y 1% 10 inch target 300y100% 500y82% 600y 58% 700y 37% 800y23% 900y 14% 1000y 9% 1200y 4% You get the general...drift etc. Doesn't apply to your .199 varmint vaporiser? 333 Lapoo Magnum Tali basher? Well it does. Of course,the absolute figures change,but not the trends. Remember too,this is 'just' the ballistics-any other shooter error reduces hit % often alarmingly. However,laser the distance,not too small a target(5inches),have supreme wind skills,and great gear...shoot perfectly,and you'll get 90 dongs on 100 gongs at 500y. with a very good 308 combo. Alas,only 11 dongs though at 1000y. At least I haven't included the POOR condiions data.....OH,all right,just a taste... 4mph wind error,50 y range error,1.5 moa rifle/ammo ;SD 20fps :target at 300/600/900y 15 inch target 94/27/6 ;10 inch target 75/13/3 ; 5 inch target 31/3/1 % hits ( eg at 300y,10inch target 75 hits ,and 5inch target 31 hits in 100 shots-not the ideal deer combo). These of course are 'all day/night long' data,100 shot group/samples for each condition/distance,ie 'reliable'. Hmmmm.... not sure a cappucino will be strong enough. I suppose it could mean a lot of misses are not 'you' (glass is 75% full :-),but remember 'your' errors are not included in the above (glass is 75% empty :-( gbal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swarovski1 Posted April 9, 2015 Report Share Posted April 9, 2015 Hopefully one day I will get to watch a match, what sort of money would the winning 6.5x284 cost to build, is the 6mm br ammo handloads or factory,0.3 is good groups from factory ammo,6.5x284 is still the king I guess, would the 6xc be a better repeater then, somebody in our club shot a 6xc at 1k and thrashed me, somehow I beat it atbin the afternoon at 600yds, must of been luck.this must of been 4 years ago, ive improved a little since then lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyw Posted April 9, 2015 Report Share Posted April 9, 2015 swarovski-the 6br /Dasher /6xc etc are hard to beat -BUT- the conditions have to be just right-the lucky fu**er gods on your side and all the ducks in a neat row.the 6.4-284 is a good cartridge for a 1000yds so is the 6-284 or a straight .284 its a bit of a lottery and as Vince has mentioned if you can rattle off your 5 or 10 shots in a good condition then and only then will you maybe pick up a few marbles. if you look at the list of shooters last sunday you will see one cartridge that you wouldnt think would compete at a 1000-the .22br shot by a guy called Steve Dunn he also shoots a .30 boo boo at 1000yds he can shoot so he backed his .22br and his ability. i keep winding him up about re barreling to a 6br thats what i shoot at 600 and occasionally 1000 - you pays your money etc. as for ammo for the 6br it has to be hand rolled to squeeze the best out of it-but factory ammo is available -maybe Laurie or vince can shed more light on said ammo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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