Kit used to shoot tight groups ???

[rem700]

Hi all just wondering what you guys use

To shoot your tightest groups or when doing load development

I use an atlas bipod with a monopod and scope bubble

Is there a better method to try and remove as much human error

As possible??

Thanks

[Guest Stacka]

Applying the basic marksmanship principles and 9 key point checklist.

[gaz6br]

Rear bag and bipod

 

Harris or atlas

 

Gaz

[gbal]

Accepting Stacka's point-shooting competence,is there 'better' equipment?

 

Well good bipod is fairly good-but has some 'flex' etc-ie small potential inconsistency.Rifle can move relatively easily in any direction-not much,but it don't take much to double your group.

 

Look at what the accuracy nuts use (Bench Rest) and either spend a few hundred pounds,or approximate it cheaply-I quite like the Bulls Bag type of LONG (15 inches) filed bag with 15 inch 'ears' that hold the rifle quite otherwise unsupported,by it's 'butterfly design"-rifle weight grips rifle over the 15 inches.While bulky,you can keep weight down by appropriate variations in filling material (rice/polystyrene beads)..£50.No need for a back bag. Short ones wobble,need back bag-double whammy,really.

gbal

[jcampbellsmith]

In the move from shooting factory ammo to reloaded ammunition I made a number of changes/additions to my kit.

 

8x50 scope replaced with 5-30 x 50

No idea what a rear bag was to a choice of bean bag or sand filled protektor.

Large black dot targets to fine red diamond targets.

T8 moderator to AU-SL5

No range finder through several iterations to Leica binocs with EHR

From nothing to worrying about rifle fit and good cheek weld.

 

and finally, get my Dad to shoot the rifle.

 

Hope that helps.

 

JCS

[1967spud]

Accepting Stacka's point-shooting competence,is there 'better' equipment?

 

Well good bipod is fairly good-but has some 'flex' etc-ie small potential inconsistency.Rifle can move relatively easily in any direction-not much,but it don't take much to double your group.

 

Look at what the accuracy nuts use (Bench Rest) and either spend a few hundred pounds,or approximate it cheaply-I quite like the Bulls Bag type of LONG (15 inches) filed bag with 15 inch 'ears' that hold the rifle quite otherwise unsupported,by it's 'butterfly design"-rifle weight grips rifle over the 15 inches.While bulky,you can keep weight down by appropriate variations in filling material (rice/polystyrene beads)..£50.No need for a back bag. Short ones wobble,need back bag-double whammy,really.

gbal

[247sniper]

Applying the basic marksmanship principles and 9 key point checklist.

Can you share them please

[Guest Stacka]

Position and hold must be firm enough to support the weapon - (9 key point check list)

The weapon must point naturally at the target without any undue physical effort - (alignment check)

Sight picture and sight alignment must be correct - (head position)

The shot must be released and followed through with out any disturbance - (correct trigger action breathing cycle)

 

If I'm honest it's something that needs to be shown to master correctly. Once you got it, the rest falls into place

[Big Al]

Applying the basic marksmanship principles and 9 key point checklist.

 

What are these then?

[jay666d]

In a very thick book given to the Forces... Or many pages on the interweb!

[Guest Stacka]

Any one want to know more PM me

[gbal]

Position and hold must be firm enough to support the weapon - (9 key point check list)

The weapon must point naturally at the target without any undue physical effort - (alignment check)

Sight picture and sight alignment must be correct - (head position)

The shot must be released and followed through with out any disturbance - (correct trigger action breathing cycle)

If I'm honest it's something that needs to be shown to master correctly. Once you got it, the rest falls into place

These are general principles- if you replace "weapon' with 'shot' in the first two,they are identical to shot putting (ok,delete 'trigger' too).

That does not mean they can be neglected of course.Not at all.And especially for unaided/ shooting (gov work.)

 

Indeed ,the majority of gizmo and good gear is designed to take out the human element summarised in these principles.

In extremis,the 100y Bench Rest set up will enable a BR rifle to fire quite impressive (sub.3) 5 shot groups,when set up,and the only human touch is a 2 oz caress of the trigger. It does look rather flashy,shooting from a position not otherwise touching the rig,while you have a coffee,but there it is.As close as you'll get to 'return to battery' shooting especially if you add an electronic trigger release. Of course, .3/.4 is nowhere in that game,and to get that halved takes an awful lot of falling into place,and a fair bit of piloting the rifle. And wind reading,wind reading, and wind reading.

But field shooting close to your rig's potential is not going to be so 'easy',and the principles creep back in-though much helped by the right kit-not the kit necessarily that you would thereafter use,but pretty close-a good bipod being the ,and clearest example of an effective,practical compromise.We each choose our own compromises-and bipods!

 

gbal

[fizzbangwhallop]

The weapon must point naturally at the target without any undue physical effort - (alignment check)

Sight picture and sight alignment must be correct - (head position)

The shot must be released and followed through with out any disturbance - (correct trigger action breathing cycle)

 

 

Much the same as above....... my late father shot for Herts donkey's ago and he aways taught me to check alignment by bring the 'scope onto the aimpoint, closing my eyes for a few seconds and a couple of breaths and then opening my eyes again....... if it was still on the POA then I was aligned with the target...... if it had drifted off then I'd been 'holding' the rifle on the target and the moment of pulling the trigger was likely to put the shot off to where it had really been pointing.

 

Much like maintaining the swing with a shotgun... you need to mentally maintain the hold whilst the rifle settles after the recoil and it should end up on where your shot went. The tendency is to relax on pulling the trigger and that millisecond is often enough to spoil the shot.

 

Apologies if this is teaching you to suck eggs.... always worth going back to basics though.

 

I now zero sitting behind a big top Workmate on a camping stool using a 'pod and a rear bag..... consistency is the key.

 

Cheers

 

Fizz

[The Gun Pimp]

REm700 is asking about shooting tight groups - not making a single shot. Shooting small groups is what benchrest is all about. You may not like my 'tips' but they work!

 

Set-up - proper front rest and back-bag with the gun running and tracking properly. You can shoot accurately off a bi-pod but not as good as with a proper benchrest set-up.

 

Firing the shot - don't touch the rifle except with your trigger-finger and very light shoulder contact - no cheek-weld or stock grip. A rifle won't move on it's own - only the shooter will move it. Don't touch it and it won't move!

 

Wind-flags - sorry but shooting without wind-flags is pointless if you are trying to shoot small groups. Many benchrest shooters don't even look through the scope whilst pulling the trigger - it's more critical to watch the wind-flags.

[Shuggy]

It's a good point. Bench rest techniques breach most of the 'marksmanship principles', but if you want to shoot really small groups, then that's what works!

[gbal]

Vince (GP) has succinctly repeated my points,and for the same reason-if you want to see just what small-or not-groups your rig can do,replicate the equipment and procedures of 100y Bench Rest shooters -that is their game,and they have finessed it.I tried to advocate a balance thereafter-few will get full the BR rig just to check their rifle-and perhaps as well-many won't be so good as BR rigs.So the 'compromise' aspects,which will have to be typical 'in the field' anyhow-and there the generalities in Stacks's list have more salience-and a sporter weight/design rifle will simply kick around more anyhow,rather than slide smoothly back in its rests.(no 3" flat forend).The human simply has more to do,but bipods etc go a long way to make it easier-if you have to shoot with just a sling/offhand/prone etc,that list becomes even more important-or rather,your contribution to achieving has to be will be greater.Wind reading is always critical-even in a vice/return to battery rig.

Of course,keep it in proportion-field shooters won't often get 1/4 moa precision,but don't need it, either. They do need reasonable first shot accuracy ( no more than the animal's kill zone,preferably less than half,but the BR group precision is not the main driver of this,typically,nor is there a simple linear relation with distance-twice the distance is typical more than twice the 'group',and might be considerably more as range increases- simply put,the other imperfections -some of them those basics-start to make their presence felt.

 

gbal

[baldie]

Interesting topic.

 

Whilst i have no doubt at all that bench rests are probably the most accurate way of shooting a rifle...the shooter has to be able to get on with them.

 

Personally, I simply cannot. I,ve tried and owned several, and cannot shoot as well off one as I can a bipod and bean bag.

 

You also must remember that the rifle has to be configured to shoot off one, i.e. , a flat forend, and a parallel rear stock, otherwise its a compromise.

[1971silversurfer]

You can also have all the gear you want but if you dont know what your doing then whats the point....

 

"Being Prepared to Learn"....and "Time Spent Practising Technique" is the best investment anyone can make before purchasing all the best kit

 

"All the Gear, No Idea" springs to mind.....

[The Gun Pimp]

It's true - that solid concrete bench, front rest and rear bag are not initially your friend. But, once you master it, you can truly extract the best from a rifle - with wind-flags of course!

 

For load testing, there really is no substitute.

[rem700]

Thanks for all your input lads, very interesting. I may try one of these long butterfly/bull type bags as buying the gear for a true bench rest set up and not being able to shoulder and hold the rifle seems very alien to me even though that probably is the best way to shoot tight groups and see truly what your rifle is doing

 

Rem700

[gbal]

Rem-as said by vince,dave and my first post,there is some compromise-in different ways.No doubt that full bench rest set up is for the majority of shooters the steadiest,and most accurate platform,they will ever shoot from. You can of course shoot close to 'normal' though best results need some 'free recoil' of the rifle-no no tight grip-in the field,you do need firmer grip,much firmer with a heavy recoiler-308 short barrel sporter,heavy bullets eg.

Some just find it 'unnatural',and if the mindset isn't good,it don't help.NO disaster,for such shooters ,they can refine their prefered shooting technique,and will get representative groups when testing )remember,the Bench Rest bugholes tend to very elusive,when you revert to all the 'errors' that creep into \normal/field ' shooting-it's the method to find out your rigs precision potential,under vey good conditons.

The rifle can also be adapted simply-as Dave notes,a wide forend is not standard on rifles,but a simple 3 inch cradle can be screwed onto the sling loop screwhole-or a very simple piece of plywood-so long as the rifle can slide over tthe fron rest,this will remove an awful lot a small wobble and jump-look at the bipod the next time someone shoots with one-jump isn't uncommon-though technigue-"loading' the bipod helps-then you just have to find the bipod that you think you like......

OK ,I hoped I was clear that it's the principles of BR that can be used-buying the full set is expensive,though of course,borrowing for 20 shots isn't. The butterfly bag (Dogone Good-a bit pricey-but I don't think they make a really long one,or Bull Bag goes a long way,weighs what you want from a few pounds up,you could do worse than have a 'field size' one for varminting too.Half a trouser leg filled with polystyrene/mix is nearly free,essentially,if you want to try a basic -but inferior-copy. Front trigger guard to end of forend is max support length-use it all.The essential idea is a firm cradle to swaddle the rifle,removing almost all axial movement,and most rotational etc-yet allowing the rifle to recoil back in a way that minimally distorts the bullets exit.

But 'compromise' is inevitable-otherwise you have a 100BR rig/gear,and you can cry every time you only get a .25 group.And you can't cart it around etc.But for most shooters it's the most likely way to get close to their rifles intrinsic precision-if that really intrigues you. The bipod etc will be closer to reality (which is probably using a bipod-you could get maestro Dave to shoot it for you,to put it through its paces,or of course Vince on the Bench!

Some may not want to know-one of the maturing experience in (BR) shooting is to shoot exceptionally well,and have it remain an exception-all future poor performance is down to your imperfections,not the equipment.If you carry a super bug hole in you wallet,make sure you have dozens of similar-otherwise it is evidence of a rifle not well served by it's shooter on every other occasion!

Consistent counts.

 

OK,the "all the gear,no idea'' is initially tempting,but doesn't rhyme well...the tyro can of course learn to use it,and many do.But it's a false dichotomy- there are also shooters who might do better with bettor gear-they may well have set their own performance standards,reasonably enough and they may well be

adequate.

You can practice whatever technique you wish-including BR-forever,but if your rig's intrinsic precision is one and a half minutes of angle you simply cannot shoot any better.

Practice with decent kit is an investment in transferable skill,shooting with poor gear is a negative experience,which usually makes shooting worse-nothing you can do gives decent performance.

 

No amount of skill will make a 1/2 moa rifle shoot 1/4 moa reliably. Lack of some skill will very readily reduce a 1/4 moa rifle to worse than 1/2 moa.

 

What is needed-and we've been through this 'crossover' issue recently (equipment v skill) is good levels of both- so the mantra is:

 

Good gear,good steer

 

and,holy shizzle,it rhymes,so it must be right! :-)

 

gbal

[rem700]

Thanks Gbal

i do get bugholes now and then but find it frustrating that i carnt do it all the time using my bipod and rear monopod

my rifles are fairly good kit and my load dev is good and methodical not just pick a charge weight , then tested again and again for group and ES

swede rem 700 varmint barrel ,NF nx 25 power scope

tikka 595 varmint barrel 6mmbr same scope {15lb in weight]

my quest for bugholes has taken over my life to a point

maybe i should have a go at bench rest some day

Thanks all

rem700

[jcampbellsmith]

rem700.

 

Thanks for starting a very interesting thread. I've been consciously trying to shoot better since about 2002.

 

The factors I've worked on include:

1. Better kit.
2. Practice.
3. Training, including revisiting the basic skills I was taught in the 60's.
4. Competition.

I don't believe you can work on any of these points in isolation. I find my biggest struggle is getting enough time to pursue the 4 points above.

 

Thanks again.

 

JCS

[gbal]

Yes,interesting to dissect a little do vary,as do shooters-this might well be several tenths of an inch each in sporting ,a few thousands of an inch in each in top BR.

Intrinsic precision is a given,relatively immutable over the barrels' life.

The biggest variance comes from wind reading errors,by quite some way.

Remember that for a given make/weight/calibre/BC of bullet at the same velocity,whether from a Tikka varmint or a Stolle BR (indeed,any rifle) the wind error impact on your group will be the same.Assuming reasonable shooting experience,if we reduce to the major two variables,Gear means a better rifle,Steer means better wind skill.

 

It really is that complex.

:-)

gbal

[Murph]

Interesting topic.

 

Whilst i have no doubt at all that bench rests are probably the most accurate way of shooting a rifle...the shooter has to be able to get on with them.

 

Personally, I simply cannot. I,ve tried and owned several, and cannot shoot as well off one as I can a bipod and bean bag.

 

You also must remember that the rifle has to be configured to shoot off one, i.e. , a flat forend, and a parallel rear stock, otherwise its a compromise.

Have to agree with baldy on this one. For me I can shoot better groups off the ground with a bipod and bag than off a bench.