Redshift Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 I just wondered if any of you big 7 shooters are running or thinking of running one of the above based cases? Redshift Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1967spud Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 thinking out loud 7mm stw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbal Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 Yes,just edges the 7STW....160g@3300 No doubt someone will play with it. Did anyone get any joy from it's little brother,the 260 Nosler? Or did that just repeat the lessons of the 264 win mag from an earlier age,in exaggerated form? The 280 Nosler redefines seriously overbore-it's a modified 404 Jeffery case,I imagine,so has two problems for the long range targeteer (less so for it's intended hunter clientele). i) serious barrel burner,WSMs might be long lived in contrast ii) recoil, given that 6.5x284 or Shehane class is about the boundary for competitive shootability. So,to a first approximation,it will replace all those 7 mm Dakotas you saw last year...... gbal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 When F-Class had got going and the pioneers led by Desperado on this forum had got the GB league up and running here, the World Championships event framework had been put in place and so on, people started to experiment in a big way with really large cartridges. 7mm Rem Mag, 300 Win Mag, 30-338 Mag, and best of all the 7mm BooBoo, the RWS 8X68 in an improved form and necked-down to 7mm. Pete Wilson used a Walker Rifles built Boo-Boo to win the league championship back in goodness knows when. It wasn't a newcomer to these shores having been developed in the US by Dave Tooley (I think) for 1,000 yard benchrest and used by some of the Diggle LR BR types such as Steve Dunn who were also F-Class pioneers in the northern circuit. The BooBoo is BIG and FAST, 90.5gn water capacity case according to QuickLOAD, slightly greater than the 7mm Weatherby, around 10gn more than the WSM, but slightly less than the 7mm STW. It has a very strong rimless case with RWS manufacturing quality behind it. The 28 Nosler is unlikely to be any higher performance than the BooBoo as we're already well into over bore-capacity case to calibre ratios. So how come the GB F-Class scene isn't overrun with BooBoo chambered smokepoles? The SAUM and WSM give enough performance, more in fact than needed if loaded to their full potential. Go above the loads used by most of the top F League shooters and they become harder to shoot consistently over 20 shots in a match and maybe three times that over a day thanks to increased recoil and torque; harder to keep the barrel free from copper fouling; ruinously expensive in barrel wear and tear. Some European competitors shoot the 7mm Blaser Magnum, a collaboration between the German rifle manufacturer and Norma which has only marginally higher case capacity than the WSM, another pointer to this being around the maximum sensible case capacity for the calibre in the discipline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbal Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 Yes,Laurie....Dave Tooley created the Boo Boo.......do you remember Boo Boo's big pal -the Yogi (338),which Dave Ryan let loose occasionally? g Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roe Posted January 30, 2015 Report Share Posted January 30, 2015 I was curious about the 26 Nosler. My appeal was factory brass and a very plentiful supply of 6,5mm bullets. I am however a little worried about pressure development in such a cartridge. Most other similar 6,5mm cartridges are very temperamental in terms of pressure buildup, so why should the 26 Nosler be different. Nosler have released a new Accubond Longrange bullet which looks interesting if the numbers hold. A G1 bc of 0,719 should give a palpable difference over my 140 Amax. However, with the pricetag I cannot foresee a switch... http://www.nosler.com/news-and-articles/2015/1/26/nosler-adds-new-bullets-to-existing-product-lines Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbal Posted January 30, 2015 Report Share Posted January 30, 2015 Thomas,much agreement. As I suggested,the 260 Nosler is "just" an improved 264 win mag,and that fine cartridge did not make much impact in UK,or Europe (though it has some longer rang advantages for Rocky Mountain sheep etc!) Is the issue that there really is no real need for such 'improvement'?-leaving aside issues of cost etc. Would an extra 30 yards of range really make much difference over a season,even assuming equal hits at longer ranges,itself quite an assumption if there is wind? Which raises the issue ,not of superior BC,but of terminal performance-Nathan Foster's current work (eg) confirms yet again that there are real and important differences in terminal bullet performance,which are quite unrelated to BC per se,though known by trial and error largely by stalker,under local conditions of range and species( you don't need to agree with his specific ideas to accept the general point-adding 100fps to an already fast but poorly performing bullet won't help.) Research and development of course-once upon a time there were no Amax! gbal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie Posted January 30, 2015 Report Share Posted January 30, 2015 I was amused to find two adjacent posts about modern 6.5s and deer when I clicked onto 'New posts since Last Visit', this one on a substantially over bore-capacity design, the other on the little 6.5X47 Lapua's effectiveness in the stalking role. Given a pretty well across the board vote of confidence in the latter, what does it say about the need for or utility of the 26 Nosler? There are those who regard the 6.5-284 Norma as having a little too much case capacity for the calibre, the ideal falling between it and the century old 6.5X55mm. I find the notion of a factory cartridge with another third (?) or half (?) as much capacity again as simply bizarre. I can see one possible plus though in the light of past experience and history of similar US firearms industry inspired 'guaranteed turkeys' - buy a limited edition (100 examples) rifle for say a couple of grand, 100 rounds of factory ammo preferably in special limited edition cartons, never-ever use either purchase and in 20 years time collect your returns by selling them to an American 'collector' with more money than sense. The compound interest will be fantastic compared to any ordinary financial product. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbal Posted January 30, 2015 Report Share Posted January 30, 2015 Laurie,since I might be one of the two posts(*3 and *7) you mention-and am certainly implicated,as well as agreeing with your comments,here is just a little elaboration which makes Nosler's initiative slightly less bizzarre,maybe..... UK targeteees don't usually define US hunting directions,though goodness knows what does sometimes.No doubt a good few older US hunters would be amused to see the 284s new lease of life as aLR target number:it failed commercially as the combo 'everyone' wanted in US- a lever action 270 deer rifle.Sales for the superb,but modern win 88 were healthy in 308,from 1955 but poor indeed for the 67 cartridges 284,and 358....the 284 came very close to 270 performance,the 358 was a great short range brush cartridge. Prices for the 88 were $140,with a model 94 around $86,and a model 70 $150. The woods hunter in the East just didn't give up their 94 30/30s,and the longer range westerners would not desert their bolt actions. Neither action nor cartridge have appealed in Europe or UK. The niche for US is something like sheep shooting. Imagine Laurie,crawling up scree slopes for two days and then getting your one shot at a trophy ram (It's always a trophy one,the scrawny little sods must be more wily.) But it'll be maybe 400 yards away,and won't hang around for long.You need your flat shooting,preferably point blank (no hold over) rifle -and that's where the 264 win mag pays off.Now the 260 Nosler does just the same but for 417 yards,so is just what you need for rams between 401 and 417 yards,on this lifetime hunt. 28 Nosler,mutatis mutandis,gives the same advantages over less potent 7mms.Won't set sales records in the UK of course,where we seldom faced with such fine,critical ranging decisions when stalking. And,as we agree,both have severe downsides as target numbers-wear and tear on man and machine,though I doubt that either was intended for that role-they are long range hunting numbers. I'll readily concede that the sexy 6.5x47L is fashionable,for sure,and as a stalker for UK,isn't effectively different from several established 6.5s, but is very poorly served by available off the peg stalking rifles;though the fashion also seems much influenced by relatively heavy,tactical designs. (ghillie groaners). Full circle,the 260 (and 7-08) would have been just perfect for the Win 88 ! gbal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie Posted January 30, 2015 Report Share Posted January 30, 2015 Yes, I quite agree George (re 26 Nosler and similar). Like you, I've been struck too by the absence of any factory 6.5X47s appearing, but imagine that's down to the single factory ammunition source. With the homegrown 6.5mm Hornady Creedmoor still having lots of mileage to run before it settles into its long term niche, I don't see any American manufacturers being in any hurry to start loading the '47, or ever doing it for that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbal Posted January 30, 2015 Report Share Posted January 30, 2015 Indeed Laurie-I suppose,offhand,6BR and even 6PPC have not been very well served by US major manufacturers( a few exceptions ,perhaps- PPC Rugers for a while,and Coopers,Savage limited 6BR eg). Rather similarly,US ammo manufacturers have not produced much either-Remington didn't even produce Rem BR ammo.) Commercial isolationism? not quite-the 7.62x39 Russian has enjoyed both US made rifles and ammo....nor is it a 'not a good cartridge' issue,nor even 'no demand'....? Beginning to sound like a shooting pub quizz question: "Which major US rifle producer has made rifles chambered in a cartridge not produced in the US by a US ammo company?"...or any ammo company??... (' US made ammo but no US made rifle for it' is an easier warm up question.) g Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roe Posted January 30, 2015 Report Share Posted January 30, 2015 A little aside: I'd actually bring a 6XC (or more likely a 243 in case ammo was lost in transit) for those sheep - reaching the end of my stalk I'm guaranteed to be winded, there's a high probability of a less-than-perfect position and I would want the most forgiveness for my imperfections as possible - high recoil does not give that. I reckon there's not much that will be alive after a well placed 6mm bullet anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pba Posted January 31, 2015 Report Share Posted January 31, 2015 Hi Laurie, Very informative posts as usual. One slight correction, the Blaser magnums at the Euros were 300BM, not 7mm. The brass was a specific order from Norma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbal Posted January 31, 2015 Report Share Posted January 31, 2015 Thomas,I think it needs consideration by the individual hunter-I didn't want to complicate things with 'rifle and cartridge and shooter' factors! Especially as I was a bit tongue in cheek about the Nosler advantage-maybe 17 yards over the 264wm,but we might as well look at the relative pros and cons overall. The shooter might be stressed,and position might not be very good and recoil contributes to a variably pulled shot.The experienced shooter should know what they can handle,and what the balance is: less precise shot placement versus more energy delivered,and slightly better probability of delivering it,due to better trajectory.The numbers are (commercial ammo,200 zero,though a 300 zero would change things: 400 yards drop/drift /energy: 243 95g Nosler BT 20/14/925 6.5x55 120 " 23/14/1305 264winmag 120 " 16/10/1600 7 STW 140 " 13/8/2210 The best 6mm might give 85g 14/12/1200 It's clear there is a trade off-a 300 zero eg would reduce the needed 400y hold over,and the delivered energy (maybe shot margin?) varies quite a bit. Racy wildcats might edge a slight improvement-in all. On the other hand,our scree scrambling rifle might well be a lightweight 'mountain rifle' recoiling more (though less fatiguing?) As ever,the shooter has to make choices based on his personal skill set.In principle,I tend to agree-better an adequate rifle/cartridge shooter combo,than a "riskier magnum+" but 'adequate/risky' vary between hunters. All this is ,of course-or should be- a very small niche issue. Not something the new cartridge advertisers will emphasise,of course-but experienced hunters and writers do-Jack O'Connor-and his wife-perhaps the most experienced sheep/goat shooter used 270w and 7x57,in 'carry rifles',and that would be in 'pre laser' ranging days, a technology that considerably changes longer range ballistic must have,a great help in enabling the rainbow (NOT laser!) trajectory to connect with the pot of gold (when there is no wind). :-) g Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie Posted January 31, 2015 Report Share Posted January 31, 2015 Hi Laurie, Very informative posts as usual. One slight correction, the Blaser magnums at the Euros were 300BM, not 7mm. The brass was a specific order from Norma. Thank you - very interesting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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