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Crows and rabbits - best long range calibre (500 yards) - .223 or .204


Crash72

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Hi to all you experts out there!

 

My question. I have a permission which is 800 acres and is cleared for up to .223 for fox, crows and rabbits. There are some great 500 yards shots to be made. When I'm not at the farm I would like to shoot targets at range. I have talked to many rifleman who all tell me to go the .223 route with a 1-8 twist.

 

I was going to purchase a Tikka T3 Varmint .204 and then move up to a .223 1-8 twist in a few years after shooting and learning the ropes with a .204.

 

I am now 90% decided on the .223 1-8 but it's always good to read and learn more so does anyone have experience with the .204 and can convince me to go that route instead.

 

Thanks in advance,

Crash

 

 

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If you can get a 6mm passed go for that over a .22 as you will have a better hit ratio at those distances.

Unless you got to a tight twist 22-250 or something. 223 will get the job done but you are pushing the limits of consistent hits out past 500 yards

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Hi to all you experts out there!

 

My question. I have a permission which is 800 acres and is cleared for up to .223 for fox, crows and rabbits. There are some great 500 yards shots to be made. When I'm not at the farm I would like to shoot targets at range. I have talked to many rifleman who all tell me to go the .223 route with a 1-8 twist.

 

I was going to purchase a Tikka T3 Varmint .204 and then move up to a .223 1-8 twist in a few years after shooting and learning the ropes with a .204.

 

I am now 90% decided on the .223 1-8 but it's always good to read and learn more so does anyone have experience with the .204 and can convince me to go that route instead.

 

Thanks in advance,

Crash

 

 

 

What does learning the ropes mean?

 

Are you new to rifle shooting altogether or just 500yd small target stuff?

 

Are you going to be reloading or will you have to stick with factory ammo?

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Crash,there was quite a discussion on this a few weeks ago-try 360 yard crow,17 Nov and others-on 500 y shots.

I am tempted to assume 'learn the ropes' and a new permission imply you are not an experienced long range shooter-and 500y at vermin is long range-unlike gongs and paper ,ethics play a part too..nor usually can you 'walk ' shots in .

Opinions vary-while Ballistics should not be ignored,don't assume learning the ropes will be easy-you will get tangled by wind,whatever cartridge you use.The better 223 loads are drifting 30+ inches at 500, nothing in this class-inc 20- drifts less than 25inches.Top very hot 6mm can't get below 20 inches.

Human error in wind is seldom less than 10%,more often twice that (remember wind at muzzle is accurately given by a basic Kestrel,but judging wind vagaries all the way out to 500,with turbulence etc,let alone changes while bullet is in flight is extremely difficult-and that simply adds up to miss factors of crow missing/possible rabbit wounding size....oh,and of course add on rifle precision...a 1/2 moa at 100y rifle might just about manage 4-5 inches at 500(many do not-lots of factors come in with distance) so you've missed by at least another half of that ,say 2 inches.

 

Hopefully,you get the point-while hits at 500 are possible,for the majority of shooters,there are more misses-we wiill hear of gong hits 'most of the time'-yes,but the gongs will be 8 inches or so-that is a lot bigger than a rabbit (about 3 times ).....a realistic distance might be 300,where a practiced shooter might have an acceptable hit ratio.Plenty do not,but they don't necessarily post here to say that!

223 is ok-get a fast twist...I suspect yu wont want custom,but a 223 Ackley Improved is a better proposition,as the 223 gets stretched,and 500 is stretching it-no one shoots 223 by choice for competition at 5/600y-it's outclassed,and the 6mm come into play- esp with small targets.

Good shooting-with 800 acres,you can 'learn these ropes' at sensible distances,and see how you progress.Cartridge within limits,matters a lot less than skill (with the wind-what any shooting beyond 250 yards is really about). Do check the previous posts though-its all quite recent.

 

Plan B-don't shoot in the wind,buy a rifle with guaranteed 1/4 moa performance! :-)

 

gbal

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Thanks guys. My experience so far is my Sako Quad Varmint .17 hmr, which I love and shoot crows and rabbits at 200 yards max. I will not be reloading for the next few years so it will be factory ammo. I'm now thinking for crows and rabbits limit the range to 400 yards and go with a .204 and factory ammo, 32grain and 40 grain.

 

I guess if I go .204 I can always sell it in a few years and get a .223 fast twist and start reloading for distances beyond 500 yards.

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Crash,OK your experience with the l 17 hmr will have shown the basics of wind-around 15 inches at 200y,10mph wind.

204 is a considerable step up,but the same drifts and problems exist,just at increased range....15 inch drift at 400y (plus the other factors,of course). There is nothing much between the 223 and 204 Ruger in pragmatic terms at the ranges you mention-distance is a challenge for each-as any cartridge.Take your pick-budget and factory ammo may come in-but both have choices. If you ever need more, and you may not,you will have a good experience basis for considering a move up to ,say,6mm,or just possibly,high BC capable 223s,which might have a bit more range shooting appeal,too-they can put holes somewhere on paper at extended ranges,but you won't win much-not that competition is the best fun anyhow! Gong ding dong does it for lots of shooters!! Enjoy the LR ropes.

g

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How many times do you hit the 200yd crow or rabbit with a 17HMR on anything other than a still day? with respect I think your expectations are a bit unrealistic with rabbits at 500yds. Once you get to 350yds and with the variables gbal talks about its very easy to miss a 3" target and much harder to hit it.

 

With a 1:8 twist .223 the preferred bullet would probably be the 75gr or 80gr Amax for ranges of 400yds+ and they don't come as factory loadings, you have to reload then yourself which means you won't be able to use the optimum ammo for wind drift which will make a big difference again to your success rate. Anything less than these Amax loads in a 1:8 twist .223 and you might as well be using a .204 of some kind.

 

Sorry if this sounds negative, I would say it more realistic than negative as Ive spent a lot of time looking into this very subject in the last couple of months.

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Thanks Big Al. This is what I wanted to hear and it looks like you did your research. I will not be reloading for a few years so like you said, I would not be using the .223 1-8 twist to its full potential. The .204 seems to be the right sanswer out to 400 yards using factory ammo. I will just have to keep within my limits of 400 yards until I upgrade the calibre at a later date.

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Hi Crash,

 

I can talk from both both sides here as I own both of the rifles you are talking about.

 

1) A custom .204

2) A custom .223 Ackley Improved 1/7 twist shooting 80 Grain AMax.

 

You talk about a 1/8 Super varmint. There is at least a 6 month wait for them although I have heard they are doing away with a 1/8 and going with a 1/10 twist, I'd do your homework on this first!

 

Out to 400 yards the 204 is just awesome, when you have put the time, effort and practice in, 350 yard shots (small gongs and rabbits etc) in windy conditions is very repeatable and 90% of the rabbits shot at are hit. After 350 yards you DO have to be more precise with wind readings and changes between you and the target and little wind changes make bigger differences down range to the .20 cal bullets.

 

The .223Ai with the high BC bullets (0.482 for the 80 Amax) (.204 39SBK's = 0.252) are a different beast all together. Out to 350 yards the .204 is flatter shooting and the wind is around the same as 80's, but after 350 yards the high BC 80 AMax's really do shine especially in the wind out past 800 yards and more!

 

The limiting factor you are faced with Crash is you will be limiting yourself by using factory ammo and not reloading, If you have a rifle that shoots factory ammo at only around 1MOA then 200-250 yards will be on the maxs limit for successful hit rates.

 

Hope this helps?

 

Steve

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Thanks a lot Steve. I have actually purchased a Tikka T3 Varmint 1-8, I just need to pay off the remaining balance next month and pick it up :-) They do have a Tikka T3 Varmint .204 also in stock so I have the option to switch. It's a lot of money to spend and I still have to buy the scope, mounts and moderator, hence wanting to make the right decision. I might have to start relaoding or find someone who will for me.

 

I never thought buying a rifle would be such hard work :-) You gotta love it though.

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Thanks a lot Steve. I have actually purchased a Tikka T3 Varmint 1-8, I just need to pay off the remaining balance next month and pick it up :-) They do have a Tikka T3 Varmint .204 also in stock so I have the option to switch. It's a lot of money to spend and I still have to buy the scope, mounts and moderator, hence wanting to make the right decision. I might have to start relaoding or find someone who will for me.

 

I never thought buying a rifle would be such hard work :-) You gotta love it though.

 

It all depends what you are shooting and what range you want to shoot at?

 

Both calibers have their advantages and disadvantage, I wouldn't call a .223 a step up as you described, it certainly isn't.

 

Out to 400 yards, (almost quarter of a mile) I'd go .204, fast flat shooting, surprisingly good in the wind as well.

 

A fast 1/8 twist .223 is better with high BC bullets be hound 400 yards in terms of ballistics, but not as good as a point and shoot rifle out to 400 yards over the .204.

 

The 1/12 twist .223 your limited to bullet weight upto around 55 grains with a lot lower BC's then the heavey weights. You may as well go for a .204 if you go down this route as you can shoot 40 grain bullets and lower weight bullets like the 32's at lightning speed of 4000fps if you wish.

 

Yo need to think how many realistic shots you will be taking in out to 500 yards and how many will be upto 350-400. If the majority of shots are going to be out too 350 yards then I'd in my experience go .204.

 

 

Then again, if you don't reload then there is more selection of bullets available in .223, but none of the longe range fellas like the 75/80 grain AMaxs are avaliblilty through. Factory offering.

 

Steve

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Thanks Big Al. This is what I wanted to hear and it looks like you did your research. I will not be reloading for a few years so like you said, I would not be using the .223 1-8 twist to its full potential. The .204 seems to be the right answer out to 400 yards using factory ammo. I will just have to keep within my limits of 400 yards until I upgrade the calibre at a later date.

 

Its never that easy!

 

Consider this;

 

If your serious about getting out to 500yds with any consistency then the 8 twist 223 is the better option shooting the 75/80gr heavies. On that basis you could buy the 223 and just use 55gr vmax to start with, they were very accurate in my Tikka. With a 55gr .223 you won't have the performance of a .204 running 39/40gr bullets but you will still have something 350yd capable and will have future proofed yourself with the right rifle for the time when you start reloading and can switch to the heavies.

 

If you have 500yd rabbits its easy enough in most cases to make them 300yd ones until you have the practise and firepower to stretch further. If my 223 had been 8 twist I wouldn't be building a new rifle now. It could be wise and cheaper in the long run to think ahead.

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I'm with Al and Steve-with one proviso about 'flat/point and shoot":the term 'flat' is relative-

A 32 g Vmax MV 4225 fps ,zeroed at 200 y is 4 inches low at and by 400y it's over 13 inches low (drift 10 and 19 inches in 1mph wind). That is better than a 223 (6 and 20 ish,drift 13 and 26...all depends on bullet etc-huge choice).

 

I could live with 4" at 400 as nearly point and shoot-holding dead on a rabbit would about graze it,but not 13 inches at 500-that is definitely adjust territory,as I think is wind at both distances.

 

If point and shoot are to mean very much (assumption is that point means at the rabbit,not 12 inches above it!) then the 204 fails before 400y,and certainly beyond it 223 is even more unsatisfactory.

Just for perspective,though,there really isn't a "flat point and shoot' cartridge available at 400y-

a 223WSSM is 4.4/7.9 by 300y,and a really hot 6mm 4.6/6.3 at 300,and 14/12 by 400y.

 

By 300y,even with 200 zero,they are all needing some holdover,the best a couple of inches...if your ranging is spot on,as by 400 your 204 drop has increased from 4 inches to 13 inches.....and that is definitely 'adjust and shoot'.

 

So, manageable without adjusting clicks to 300,yes...but not 400.

 

I've used commercial data-about the best buyable-throughout,but hotting up doesn't change things much,the hot six is 85G@2620,while a 55 g 243 would be a bit over 4/8 at 300,and 13/15 at 400...

 

Of course,add all the other group dispersal factors onto the 'pure' drop/drift ones....

 

300/350 is very doable,but much beyond is into lots of clicks....whatever the cartridge is...so it get's demanding....

 

 

gbal

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I don't think point and shoot is a very realistic a term George with any cartridge on small rabbit/crow sized targets much past 250yds really, even then its always going to be better to range and dial.

Agreed- it\s not a term I would use-nor is anything 'flat'.

"Point and shoot" is used by some,but I was at some pains to show that if it means anything, it means a centre hold on the target (quarry) that will ensure a clean kill- ie no sight adjustment (clicks) and really,no substantial holdover/holdoff (say two or three inches max).

No cartridge will do that beyond 250/300y on crow/rabbit...just maybe on bigger varmints( fox ?) to about that distance??

 

With a kill zone max 4 inches vertical (less for rabbits,often) then virtually every cartridge fails as a "point and shoot"

 

at 300y or so,and certainly the commercial cartridges/ammo mentioned in this post. 400y is way out of 'point and shoot' range.

 

I'd think it nearly always better to make a precise aiming adjustment at small targets,any substantial distance away,if possible--though night fox at 125 yards eg is maybe an exception with suitable zero (100-150y, though 'fox' was not in the original post). As I said,all this is even before rifle precision factors and shooting wobbles are included....

Otherwise,though a single round can hardly be a 'spray',it is likely to need to benefit from a 'pray'-and that is in the hands of the god(s). I am a ballistic atheist.

 

gbal

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Shame you're limited to .223.

Given your level of experience, I'd run with a .204 now and aim to get a 6mm later if that were possible. 400yds is a long way out there for most people and should account for more that 90% of your target opportunities I'd guess. Past 400yds, the wind is the big killer- reality will show you that, believe me

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Thanks gbal! I think I'm going to stick with my original decision - Tikka T3 Varmint .223 with a 1-8 twist and Vortex Viper PST scope. This should get me running in the LR world :-) for now!

 

Hi Crash - an 8 twist 223 is a very good choice and in my experience of owning both the 204 and 223 , the 22 cal is the one to go for , if your wanting to stretch out to 500 yrds +

 

I have owned two 223 super varmints and both rifles would shoot consistently 0.25 MOA with the higher BC bullets such as 75 grn Amax or the exceptionally accurate 68 grain Hornady BTHP that has a measured BC 0.370.and motor a long at a healthy 3100 fps.

 

For foxing and varminting that's a little closer to home , my 223 is normally on a strict diet of 55 grn SKB's which zip along at a quite impressive 3360 fps.

 

The 204 is an excellent varmint rifle - its a shame that factory rifles tend to be fitted with 12 twist barrels, unfortunately it means some of them wont fully stabilse the 39 / 40 grn bullets - If you own of those guns - your are then stuck shooting the 32 /33 grn bullets which have a significantly lower BC and therefore less potential for LR shooting.

 

I also question the velocities given by Hornady in their 204 factory ammo. The figures of 4225 fps for the 33 grn Vmax and 3900 fps for the 40grainers respectively look very appealing and certainly outshine the 223 ( if they were true)

 

I have done a lot of testing and crono-ing on both my 204's using factory and my hand loads. My totally unbiased findings were factory ammo was significantly down on the manufacturers claims.

 

The 33 grn bullets that were supposed to be zipping along at 4225 fps - were actually doing 3960 fps. - OK , still no slouch - but its not what they were claiming either. Hornady velocity claims are obviously obtained using longer barrels than the 23 tube used in my tests.( or marketing BS :ph34r: )

 

A couple of months ago - a friend of mine, who runs a beautiful Sako 85 - 204 - was telling me how much faster they were compared to the 223. Although he had never crooned his load - he claimed it must be doing at least 3900 fps with his hand loads. ... Some light squabbling then ensued. :P

 

A few bullets over the crono showed that the 20 inch Sako was actually spitting them out at 3530 fps. That's 250 fps slower than my 223 shoots a 40 grn Nosler BT ( 3780 fps) His was a face of surprise and disappointment.

 

A good article here http://www.gunmart.net/accessories_review/hornady_204_ruger

 

 

Back to the 223 - there some excellent high BC bullets that will make gongs swing at 600 yrds time after time when you do your part. You can have great results at ranges between 400 and 500 yards using standard 50 - 60 grn varmint bullets on good days..... Same with the 204 using 39/40's.

 

 

Off YouTube - worth a watch

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkvNChXAt4M

 

 

 

 

The 204 is a great calibre and might be a little flatter shooting - but the 223 has a better choice of bullets.(ranging from 30 to 90 gns) Critically both reloading components and factory ammo are more readily available and usually cheaper.. and barrel life is significantly longer

 

 

If you finding your doing a lot of shooting past 400 yrds - a 6mm calibre would prove very useful

 

 

 

ATB

S

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Thanks for the reply S. Some great info!

 

Today I called my FEO and had the .223 switched to .204 - it's what I have always wanted. I decided on a Tikka T3 Varmint Stainless in .204 - I have always wanted a .204 and I think it's a perfect step up from the .17 hmr I'm using at the moment. Realizing that most of my shooting will be crows and rabbits out to 400 yards I think it's the perfect calibre for the time being. I'm sure I will stretch it out to 500 yards on steel gongs :-)

 

As time goes on and I feel like I want to take things to the next level are start shooting out to a 1000 yards and going stag shooting in Scotland I will buy a .260

 

So I guess now I need to locate some ammo, 32 grain and 40 grain and have some fun.

 

Crash

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Sherlock....very interesting...Hornady's published test barrel length is 26 inches.

and of course ,Hornady claim their Superformance Ammo is 100-200 fps faster than 'conventional' loads,eg 204 32g @4225 fps ;and indeed, Winchester and fEderal ammo is 32@4040 +/-10 fps;Remingtoon is 32 @ 4225...).

 

The 223 Superformance ammo just to compare is 53 vmax @ 3465 claimed,likewise up 135 fps over conventional.

 

Allowing for both longer barrel and top advantage of 200fps,I suppose the Hornady Superformance factory ammo might have about 250fps advantage over the 'conventional' 204 (or223) loads reloaders might achieve,without exceeding SAAMI pressures.

 

Crash-If only everyone had a chrono and pressure measure......:-)....we'd still have pretty close contenders to 300y for crows,and the anticipation of 6mm at twice that! They may even improve a little meanwhile.Enjoy and learn.

 

gbal

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Crash the 20s are brill and bring big grin factor , one big bonus is the ricochet factor of the 20s is much lower compared to the 75 - 90 grainers . :)

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Thanks for the reply S. Some great info!

 

Today I called my FEO and had the .223 switched to .204 - it's what I have always wanted. I decided on a Tikka T3 Varmint Stainless in .204 - I have always wanted a .204 and I think it's a perfect step up from the .17 hmr I'm using at the moment. Realizing that most of my shooting will be crows and rabbits out to 400 yards I think it's the perfect calibre for the time being. I'm sure I will stretch it out to 500 yards on steel gongs :-)

 

 

Crash

 

 

Crash

You could never be accused of letting the grass grow under your feet... You only started the thread yesterday :wacko:

204 is a great cal - it will do everything you want - Best of luck

 

ATB

S

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Hi Crash - an 8 twist 223 is a very good choice and in my experience of owning both the 204 and 223 , the 22 cal is the one to go for , if your wanting to stretch out to 500 yrds +

 

I have owned two 223 super varmints and both rifles would shoot consistently 0.25 MOA with the higher BC bullets such as 75 grn Amax or the exceptionally accurate 68 grain Hornady BTHP that has a measured BC 0.370.and motor a long at a healthy 3100 fps.

 

S

 

 

Do these guys expand ok for vermin at long range?

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