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Best cal for 600 to 800 yards targets


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Hello Members this is my first post on the forum. Been thinking of joining for a while but finally got around to it.

i have a 223 rem with a 1.12 twist, it shoots great using 53 55g match bullets out to 400 yards.

I am now able to shoot on ranges out to 800 yards thanks to the club i am in and i want to be able to get 'good' hits at that range.

My question is should i go for a 1.8 or 9 twist on a 223 and use heavier bullets ? Or change calibre to 308 or 6.5x55.

i enjoy the long range challenge, plus my FAC comes up for renewal just after Christmas and i want to put in for the right thing. I hand load all my 223 rounds and get very good results.

 

Hope you can help the new boy (i am 56)

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hello-for your 223 to work at the ranges you propose you will need to go for a one in 8 twist firing 70grain plus bullets.Your existing twist will not stabilise much over 55 grain and there will be less wind drift with the heavier bullet.Therefore your choice is a re barrel assuming you want to lose the 223 as say a varmint rifle or a bigger more appropriate target round.Not much to choose between 6.5x55,6.5x47 6mmbr or a 260.Good luck with whatever you choose.regards Richard.PS don't disregard a 243 although the above calibres seem flavour of the moment but with good reason.

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+1 on the suggested calibres-there are a few others,of course.Don't assume the 308 is the best-recoil gets unhelpful,and it's ballistically outclassed by even the 6BR-essentially the 308 shortened.Some of the 308's 'popularity' is that it preceded many of the better cartridges,and is mandatory for some popular competitions because of it's history,rather than capabilities.It's not a bad choice,but have a good think about your options-there may be better ones for you. Accurate Shooter is a good site-don't be put of by the somewhat specialised competition bias-it covers lots of good cartridges very well.You are probably better serves by a 'standard' cartridge rather than a wildcat/highly specialised one. Don't rush it.

 

gbal

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223 Rem with a 7 to 8 inch twist barrel and throated for 80s is a very nice combination, and if you're happy with your existing rifle is a simple rebarrelling job. There is a good choice of match bullets in the right weight range, the best (but also hardest to get and most expensive) being the 80.5gn Berger Target BT Fullbore, both ballistically efficient and usually very easy to tune (not always guaranteed with 80gn VLDs). The antediluvian 80gn Sierra MK is still a very good performer to 800 and is a lot cheaper. Forget 77s as they're mag-length lower BC jobs.

 

That set-up will work well with a 26, better still 28-inch barrel, but if there is any half-serious F-Class/FTR competition in your club, simply won't cut the mustard on the proper (small) F-Class target at 800 except on very calm days. If you want to play in FTR, get a proper .308 Win FTR rifle or at the least adapt a good secondhand TR rifle using a decent FTR bi-pod and good quality scope.

 

After the 308 option, whether for general 'target shooting' on the standard NRA (2-MOA 5-ring / 1-MOA V-Bull) target, consider the smaller 6.5s - 260 Rem, 6.5mm Hornady Creedmoor, and especially the 6.5X47 Lapua. They are all mild numbers on the shoulder, capable of outstanding accuracy, and not too expensive to handload for. I don't think anybody makes a factory 6.5X47 Lapua though, so it's a custom rifle job or a rebarrel something else and that is unlikley to be your present rifle as the cartridge (and the others) use a different case-head / bolt-face diameter from 223.

 

As others have suggested, there is also the 6BR (6mm BR Norma to be more precise) and whilst it was a custom rifle job for many years, Savage now makes some very good rifles in its Precision Target and Precision Varmint ranges in the calibre and they're available new at reasonable prices. (Savage also does fast twist heavy-barrel 223s in the same two ranges.) Firedoc on this forum recently set a new GB Factory Sporter 1,000 yard group record with an out of the box Savage rifle showing what they and the cartridge can do. The 6BR has readily available Lapua brass, pricey but lasts forever, and is easy to load for and is more economical than say 308 or mid to larger size cartridges like the 260 Rem and 6.5X55mm. There is a good choice of both dies and 105gn bulllets and it's delightful to shoot in a heavyish rifle. The only thing that 6BR doesn't do very well is feed from a magazine (although 'Baldie' here has made a good living supplying varmint shooters with reliable mag fed BRs), but that's not an issue for target shooting and the Savage PTA action jobs are mostly single-shot.

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.260 rem does it all.

+1...would not have bothered with a 308 if I had bought this first!

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Loveshooting,though you have had some good suggestions,I was thinking that the advice might be more focussed if you gave a little more info-eg specific competitions your club runs, your approx rifle budget,whether you are applying for another rifle(s)or just a replacement for current 223,whether you would reload for it,and so on...as these either suggest some must have short list-or exclude other choices ( a rebarrel might cost no less than another used rifle,for example...maybe more...)

gbal

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Go with the 6.5s my friend, you will not be disappointed!

That's a Mine Field in itself... If you do settle on 6.5, then you have to decide on which one! I suppose the same can be said of 6mm, or just about all of the calibres now! :-/

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Well you guys really know your stuff, i knew this forum was the best one to get advice from.

Reply to gbal. I shoot at Military ranges (not live stuff) at STANTA at ETR targets, between 100 to 800 yards, as well as a'normal' range at paper targets out to 600 yards.My budget is up to a grand, i would continue to reload whatever the caliber as i enjoy doing it.

I love the 223 as its easy on the shoulder, very easy to reload and i am getting very good results at the moment with my current set up.

I don't want to splash out on the wrong rifle if the gain is small, i would be happy to go for a 1.9 twist 700 or `tika T3 or even a savage.

The best results i currently get is using 53g match bullets with 22.5grains of H322, half MOA at 100 yards is very easy to achieve.

Hitting a steel 8"SQ at 300 is no problem.

I hope this extra info helps.

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That's a Mine Field in itself... If you do settle on 6.5, then you have to decide on which one! I suppose the same can be said of 6mm, or just about all of the calibres now! :-/

There is choice,of course,but the likely contenders are very close ballistically-especially for a 'club' shoooter.

The 260 might edge it for tactical (better choice of rifle/mags and factory brass-it gets lost!) or bigger deer(1400 bullets);

the Creedmoor is target oriented,but not a great edge-less available-and the 6.5x47 is perhaps the best all rounder,but not by much-limits are available rifles .....but really they are interchangeable for most...differences are in availability,cost,brass etc-not much in it after the trigger is pulled.

6mm quite similar-there are niche differences,of course-if you are an advanced shooter in the relevant specialist disciplines-but the basic 243 does pretty well still.

 

So its worth some thought,but most of the mines in these minefields go bang equally!

 

gbal

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The decision on what calibre to get - depends on what you consider BEST to be --- and what you priorities are.

 

If you want an easy option , tremendous barrel life - low recoil - low noise and a good range of bullets

Then having your current 223 rebarred with a 7 twist tube - launching bullets like Sierra 80gn MK is a great option.

 

 

However if your after shooting the best possible scores - Your going to have to burn more powder than the 223 and launch bigger higher BC bullets , at better velocities. - This obviously comes with the shackle of being much more expensive to run - and more lively to shoot.

 

If you go with option two - I would consider 6.5 x 47 Lap or 6.5 Creedmore (savage Model12 is a tasty off the shelf rifle) Bullets such as 140 Amax or the frighteningly expensive Berger 140 gr Match Hybrid Target are excellent contenders.

 

 

 

Good luck with your choice

 

ATB

S

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Ls,Thanks that helps. One of the considerable pluses of the 223 class is that it is so shootable (and economical)--as you say,8inch gongs at 300 should be quite comfortable.The down side of course,is that it is getting out of it's comfort envelope by 600,and struggling at 800-even in heavy bullet,which needs 1 in 8 twist.I'm not going to say that the 223rem can't hit an 8 inch gong at 800,but it won't do it with confidence,if there is wind.

Like you I shoot military,and even fig 11s-which are about 36x18 inches are too taxing for the 223 at 800,though possible at 600,and a dawdle at 450 even without 1/2 moa accuracy,unless winds get up -then everything begins struggle a bit.I think 8 inch gongs would be under 50% hits at 800y with a 223,mostly.

If you go for the fast twist 1/8 223,be realistic-at distance you will struggle (not that it's easy with anything in wind.)

That's where the 6mm,maybe,better yet 6.5s come in-see post above on the front runners currently-but there is limited choice indeed under £1000 new,and there are variable component/reloading costs-the 6BR is of course a very capable cartridge,and on a still day,especially,good to 1000y,better than many bigger cartridges..like 308.It is also very shootable:remember most of the competition success are with quite heavy rifles-up to around 20 lb,which damps down the recoil-usually custom numbers,at a price

I'd certainly keep 6BR in the frame though,and I 'd happily trade all the 308s I've had,save one,for 6/6.5s-mostly,they do it just as well ballistically,at the likely distances(6-8,and even 1000-though if you were shooting more at 1000y a hot 6.5/7 comes in-though you may need a new barrel every season!)

Be realistic,and have private pinches of salt available-223 rem is a lovely little cartridge,which can be stretched...but it's not a serious 800+ contender,and any gong hits at such ranges are despite its limitations-some can live with that,some have to.

A good out of the box (eg Rem 700) might give you sub moa at 1000y-most do not (remember some custom numbers might be about half that,on a good relay)....but will put down a bigger military falling man (you just have more hit area-that 8 inch gong is demanding indeed-remember it's all fairly easy to 300,and difficulty is far more than pro tata beyond (and groups ditto-a 1/2 inch at 100 is very unlikely to be 4 inches at 800-even before the wind does it's damage-many other factors start to add up with distance.

 

But hey,that's part of the fun-after a couple of sesssions,falling men 500 seems routine,and you want to stretch....only you can make the compromises between top spec gear/costs/ and what level of performance you would be comfortable with-everyone misses,it's "just" a matter of how often and by how much....and performance can be considered with reference to what you are using....some will want 9+/10 hits,some might emphasise 3 hits (and play down the 7 misses,bearing in mind their modest equipment.)

 

There is a great range of choice,so don't rush it,find out what's about right for you,and your usage. Try as many as you can,have a good look at the 'numbers',but also where they come from (you may not be in the US across the course team,or the like,for a while yet....but don't be limited to what some club members advocate either (there are a good few who are 'not up to speed',on what is currently available,and a few who are 'way over speed',lacking a pressure measure! In between most find their comfort zone.)It's not difficult to change your FAC one for one,if need be. Good and enjoyable shooting.

 

gabal

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The decision on what calibre to get - depends on what you consider BEST to be --- and what you priorities are.

 

If you want an easy option , tremendous barrel life - low recoil - low noise and a good range of bullets

Then having your current 223 rebarred with a 7 twist tube - launching bullets like Sierra 80gn MK

 

ATB

S

 

 

Thats what I have gone for, .223 Ackley Improved with a 7 twist barrel shooting 80 grain Amax @ 2960ftps with a true BC of 0.482 ;)

 

Run them figures against a 308 shooting 168 grain VLD's or the similar, you have to really step up the barrel twist on the 30 cals to be able to shoot them and to make use of the heavier greater BC's and then you will find they will loose their speed and wont be able to launch them that fast ;)

 

All this from mine with only 24.8 grains of powder :D

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Steve, I can see the attractions of the 224 calibre-more perhaps for varminting,short of 700y,because at 800+ are we not moving into well researched 6mm+ territory?

 

I have no experience of barrel life at high Ackley pressures/velocities-current wisdom seems to suggest it may be a whole lot shorter than standard 223rem.....?

 

The use of 168 308 is limiting too,though it's a decent 700 bullet.

 

Reasonable high 1000 performance (70 inch wind drift,drop matters less for the known distance target shooter) is "benchmarked" by the 6.5/142g/2950 fps BC .565 (all BCs here are averaged for the typical flight path -2000 to 2800-muzzle bcs are a little deceptive,as the bullets is reducing speed all the way).barrel lifeup to 1200 rounds-ish

 

To equal that we need in 224,a 90 g bullet at 3270,BC .502. Advantages,if achievable are lower recoil(6.67 ft lb,the 6.5 standard is 9.07),lower bullet/powder costs,but ...considerably shorter barrel life??

 

30 calibre needs a 220 bullet at 2650 BC .627, 45% more recoil at 13.15,but much longer barrel life.

 

Recoil-undesireable of course,for precision shooting-can be tamed to equality with rifle wights: 224 10.3lb;6.5 16lb;30 23.2 lb

 

..Which is problematic for 30,given competition limits...7mm /175@2800 BC .596 comes in at 18.9 for equality (70 inch drift)-one very good reason for the 7s popularity

 

and the 6mm comes in needing 115 g bullet BC.585,at 3065 fps,recoil7.63 ftlb.weight 13.5

 

There isa little play around higherBC,less velocity etc,but not much,hence new bullets are of interest...

 

It also becomes clearer why different shooting demands-and different shooters-make different choices.For example,carrying the 10.3lb 224 seems more attractive than trying to be so mobile with the 13.5lb 6.5,even....and we have terminal performance to consider if it's varmints,not just targets.

From a 4x4,the 6 and 6.5 look more attractive? And the 30 cal is just going to have a bit of a handicap compared to 6.5/7mm because of weight limits....and so on and so on....

 

There isn't really a best..... many won't need 1000y,though pro rata it still holds.....but it all kind of sets some of the important benchmark parameters...to help make it less hard-if not easy-on yourself.

 

(accuracy and precision will have to wait for another wet weekend-probably individual rifle issues?)

 

gbal

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Thats what I have gone for, .223 Ackley Improved with a 7 twist barrel shooting 80 grain Amax @ 2960ftps with a true BC of 0.482 ;)

 

Run them figures against a 308 shooting 168 grain VLD's or the similar, you have to really step up the barrel twist on the 30 cals to be able to shoot them and to make use of the heavier greater BC's and then you will find they will loose their speed and wont be able to launch them that fast ;)

 

All this from mine with only 24.8 grains of powder :D

 

 

Hi Steve.

223 Ackley with 75 / 80 grn Amax bullets is very appealing - certainly if a shooter that has live quarry top of his list . That fact was one of the deciding factors in me not opting for another 6mm centrefire rifle .

 

Other than the very sought after 105 grain Amax - I could not find another 6mm bullet with a similar BC, that would expand and kill cleanly I tried most bullets - 95 and 107 grn SMK's are drillers and so too are both Berger 87 grn and 95 grn Hunting VLD's . After that your plummeting down the BC ladder from 0.500 to 0.400 looking at something like the 87 grn Vmax. ( Which is a great varmint bullet BTW).or the superb 88 grn Berger High BC varmint pill.

 

The OP may not have to consider expansion, if targets are the quarry he seeks - then the whole 6mm bullet range opens up, including the 107 Noslers which were very accurate - and the 115 grn Dtacs - mentioned by Gbal's in his very informative posts.

 

Personally and from my experience of owning two -- I would go for a bigger cased 6mm than the 6mBR if launching lead of 105 grns and above and theres 800 yrds between you and the target.. If you are looking at 6mm - I would look at the 6x47 - or even a well turned out 243 ( 8 twist) will do the business out to 800 yrds.

 

 

A tight twist 223 (AI or standard) will get you out to 800 yrds with a high BC bullet - but I strongly suspect that in anything other than a calm day , there will be more misses than hits - and a lot of walking in the shots.

 

A better choice - would be a good 6.5 cal - and shoot pills the Berger 140 gr Match Hybrid with a G1 BC of 0.618. or the 140 grn Amax which B Litz stated has BC of 0.600.

 

A lot to think about.

S

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  • 4 weeks later...

Hi Guys.

Thanks for all the comments and advice, after a lot of time thinking weighing up the options, i think it will be a 243.

The reasons.

My total paper range will mainly be 600 yards, that will do for me as my oldish eyes are not good enough for 800 or 1000.

ETR targets yes i can see them better and you can hit them anywhere and they go down, happy days.

I was advised by a very good shot to think about what i want to do with the gun, what range do i want to shoot, how serious do i want to get, all good points.

Therefore i think the 243 will suit my needs better, easy to reload, plenty of components easy on the shoulder etc.

Heavy barrel Howa, Tikka or Remington will be on the list, just go to get the money sorted.

Thanks Happy Christmas to you all.

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One thing to consider with the 243 Win is the twist rate. A 1:8 twist will allow you to exploit the heavier bullets, especially ones in the 105 gr to 107 gr weight range. Have fun. JCS

That is the main thing against a .243, all (AFAICS) factory barrels are 1:10" twist, which severly limits the bullets you can use, even worse for you as a target shooter is that probably the best bullet ballistically you can use in a 10" twist is the 87gn V-Max (BC 0.4) which you won't be able to buy.

My 10" twist Tikka wouldn't stabilise the 90gn Scenar (which is supposed to be designed for 10", not sure why) so I wouldnt even bank on that. 90gn Bergers worked well though, and would be available to you, if you can find them!

 

If buying a factory barreled rifle I would go with the .260 Rem, just because the twist rate is more suited to the best available bullets.

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+1 on the 243,if you do so decide-wide factory choice- though much less so for JCS' suggestion of the faster twist.

My go-to rifle for ETR or anything larger than marbles out to 6/700 is a very well used Sako Forrester heavy barrel.The one thing I'd change if/when it finally gets rebarreled (1/2 moa,5k+) would be a fast twist to take the heavies ( Dtac 115) out to 1000y comfortably.

Classic,no fuss cartridge, and a very good choice for a do it all cartridge,for stated uses. With a mod,a pussycat to shoot all day,with no need for hot loads.

 

gbal

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