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safe backstop (stupid question)


James19306

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This is probably a really stupid question but im really new to varmint shooting at any kind of range. I usually shoot at around 200 yards into a pile of sand/soil in a very safe place on my farm but recently I have decided to try my hand at some longer range varmint shooting (long range for me that is :blush: ). Im shooting a .222 with a 40gr v max and think on a good day I could have a go at 3-400 yards on some crows/rabbits, all ok so far. Now my problem is basically because I have been shooting into a pile of sand my whole life and the occasional fox around the farm I seem to be very weary of taking any shot unless I have got a similar backstop to what im used to which in the field is almost never the case. I know there are no hard and fast rules for what constitutes a safe backstop in any situation but im really just after a bit of guidance as I think im way over cautious. I have attached a picture of some land that my father in law owns that I was thinking would be a good place to have a go but sadly went out today and couldn't decide if it was safe or not. Its hard to tell the lie of the land from the picture I know but basically the picture was taken from half way up a hill and all the land inside the red line is an undulating but fairly flat meadow with soft ground. I was thinking of setting the target up just in front of the field gap close to the red box but im quite worried about stray rounds leaving the boundry red line. plus there is a farm about 1000 yards in the distance right in the middle of the picture. what would be your thoughts on shooting here. please don't be too harsh if im being totally stupid. post-11076-0-22894600-1416091580_thumb.png

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Sensible advice to ask for, if you are shooting at a downward angle at earth which it looks like you will be then all should be well, obviously if you have large chunks of rock or similar hard substances there is an increased risk of ricochet. Also don't forget areas you can't see, where someone might wander into your target area.

Looks a nice spot by the way

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Look out for hard earth or grass ricochets and avoid shallow angle shots. Also don,t use trees etc as backstops. Easiest method is simply to visualise where the bullet might go if it does not hit a solid stop....will it fly over hill crest etc....there is no absolutely safe ground....your judgement is critical...any doubts then don,t shoot.

 

You asking the question shows a mature and safe attitude...good man!

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Look out for hard earth or grass ricochets and avoid shallow angle shots. Also don,t use trees etc as backstops. Easiest method is simply to visualise where the bullet might go if it does not hit a solid stop....will it fly over hill crest etc....there is no absolutely safe ground....your judgement is critical...any doubts then don,t shoot.

Absolutely spot on!!

You asking the question shows a mature and safe attitude...good man!

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I think the biggest problem for me here is that the best place to shoot over 250 yards means firing to the furthers point of the meadow which is dead in line with the farm 1000 yards in the distance. even if i shoot to the left or right what are the odds of a ricochet bouncing off wet boggy grass/possible stone and going over the hill in the distance? I should probably ask for permission to shoot into the two hills then i would be fairly sure i would be ok. thanks for the replies so far. I think im a bit overly cautious as i watch videos of people varminting like some of the sharpshooting uk videos to pick up some tips but i find it very difficult to judge a backstop. how far will a ricochet even travel that's another question.

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Your asking the question's that's telling me that you have some doubt's?

 

If you have some doubt's then my best advice is don't do it....Remember that if anything happens you are responsible for your own actions and must suffer the consequences of those actions should anything go wrong.

 

Yes you may be insured but that wont bring back somebody killed by your actions

 

Sorry to be so blunt.

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I know what you mean silversurfer but i think im being overly cautious to be honest and just wanted to know other peoples opinion on the best place/direction to shoot in this location. i would obviously never shoot directly in line with the farm in the distance but bear in mind im shooting from a very high location and im looking over the backstop hill which is i think making the situation look worse than it is. To be honest i think if i broght someone there and told them it wasn't suitable for shooting they would think im mad. surely other people must me shooting into a small valley bottom like this?

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If your not 100% happy do not squeeze the trigger!

 

As an above post says, don't use those trees as a back stop,

 

is there any footpaths along any of those hedges/tree line etc?

 

Far better been safe than sorry...

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Shoot first , ask questions later ! :P

 

 

Noo really from the pics it looks good but youll be the judge of that . I did a test years ago with my first fire arm - .17hmr @100y i put out a large sheet of mdf out about 5 mtrs behind the target to see how shallow an angle it could richochet ? It did richochet on shallow angle but the dent it left in the mdf suggested that it had less power than an air rifle because it didn't penetrate , so in theary , an air rifle could go up to 300 yds . However this is a totally different caliber / fps, ft/lbs etc but i know that for a fact that 40 sbk richochet off the deck at say 300 would never go 1000yds from that point ! Most richochet happen when hard shallow ground is struck . If you got some sheet material put it out behind the targets at 2-3-400 even and find out for sure . Alltho id want at least 3 sheet of mdf if it were me !

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I was thinking of putting some wood sheets up behind target for a while to see if there is a problem or not. Not using the trees as a backstop is a good point, i would say the hill behind the trees is plenty good enough but the problem is there is no way of knowing if there is anyone in the trees, there are no paths on the land to speak of but that doesent stop some looney going for a nature walk whether they are allowed to or not. I would be inclined to think that any ricochet off the flat meadow would be caught in the hills behind, i also think if there was a sheep terrorising fox standing almost anywhere on the meadow i would just shoot it and i think anyone else would do the same to be honest but when it comes to siting for a couple of hours firing at a target you tend to worry more and hear an impact that sounded a bit funny.

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I think there's a lot of good advice here. If you're not sure; don't do it.

 

If you're not sure about the farm; since it's their lives, their family and their children, go and tell them that you propose firing towards them and ask them if they're happy with your proposal - or ask someone you love to stand at the farm whilst you take a few shots towards them; or have them take a few shots while you stand there - if any of those suggestions sound silly; that should give you your common sense check.

 

II think im a bit overly cautious as i watch videos of people varminting like some of the sharpshooting uk videos to pick up some tips but i find it very difficult to judge a backstop. how far will a ricochet even travel that's another question.

 

Don't take internet video muppetry as the exemplar of safe practise - it's likely to be someone who's bought a camera and posted it; with no greater qualifications or insight than that; you may even be watching massively unsafe shooting; as Abraham Lincoln said: "Don't trust everything you see on the internet"

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This is probably a really stupid question but im really new to varmint shooting at any kind of range. I usually shoot at around 200 yards into a pile of sand/soil in a very safe place on my farm but recently I have decided to try my hand at some longer range varmint shooting (long range for me that is :blush: ). Im shooting a .222 with a 40gr v max and think on a good day I could have a go at 3-400 yards on some crows/rabbits, all ok so far. Now my problem is basically because I have been shooting into a pile of sand my whole life and the occasional fox around the farm I seem to be very weary of taking any shot unless I have got a similar backstop to what im used to which in the field is almost never the case. I know there are no hard and fast rules for what constitutes a safe backstop in any situation but im really just after a bit of guidance as I think im way over cautious. I have attached a picture of some land that my father in law owns that I was thinking would be a good place to have a go but sadly went out today and couldn't decide if it was safe or not. Its hard to tell the lie of the land from the picture I know but basically the picture was taken from half way up a hill and all the land inside the red line is an undulating but fairly flat meadow with soft ground. I was thinking of setting the target up just in front of the field gap close to the red box but im quite worried about stray rounds leaving the boundry red line. plus there is a farm about 1000 yards in the distance right in the middle of the picture. what would be your thoughts on shooting here. please don't be too harsh if im being totally stupid. [attachment=3421:picture 5.png

http://s1373.photobucket.com/user/james19306/media/Mobile%20Uploads/untitled-20141115-235043520_zps0df9eee9.png.html?sort=3&o=0

Nothing wrong with being overly cautious but it looks safe enough to me, can't see everything from a picture but I'd be happy to take a shot at a target this side your red boundry mark.

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Good points brown dog I mainly watch videos fortips on reading wind +boredom only a fool would take safety info from some of the videos online. Not sure if I mentioned this yet but I just had a rough measure from Google earth and the farm is between 1500/2000 m away. Strelock says my .222 has 14 ft/lb energy at 1000 yards so I doubt any ricochet could ever reach 1500m. I guess all we can ever do is use the information at hand to make the best decision possible. It is a good spot and I would be mad if I couldn't find somewhere to shoot on it. Plus I will have a word with neighbouring farmer about shooting into the adjacent hills which would be I think very safe and great for crows/rabbits.

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James,commercial 222 rem ammo (40 g @3300-3600 fps) retains around 60 ft lb at 1000y.The direction/elevation /travel of any ricochet is pretty well indeterminate.

 

Note too drop/drift (10mph),200 y zero,at 300 and 400 y are 7/12" and 20/24" (so 400 is pretty iffy!)

 

Generally sound advice,check with the farm-the hillside looks a safer location,dependent on shooter position,and if that's where your varmints are,seems well worth checking that out! As ever,safety first-there is always another target ..good luck and shooting.

gbal

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James,commercial 222 rem ammo (40 g @3300-3600 fps) retains around 60 ft lb at 1000y.The direction/elevation /travel of any ricochet is pretty well indeterminate.

 

Note too drop/drift (10mph),200 y zero,at 300 and 400 y are 7/12" and 20/24" (so 400 is pretty iffy!)

 

Generally sound advice,check with the farm-the hillside looks a safer location,dependent on shooter position,and if that's where your varmints are,seems well worth checking that out! As ever,safety first-there is always another target ..good luck and shooting.

gbal

Exactly , unsafe shot? Leave it for another day . Was thinking those 40 sbk i recon theyd go unstable by 6-700 yds . My 223(1/12twist) @600 50 sbk were hitting the worktop (40mm) sideways and on penetrate about half way thru !Cheers

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Thanks Murph, sadly though i think this thread is only proving that taking a shot with populated buildings even 1500 yards away still carries an element of risk. I think in this situation a 3-400 yard shot would be safe enough in the right place providing i get permission for the hils as the backstop will be close enough to the impact, however i feel the 200 yard shot could ricochet in such a way as to continue at a sligt upward angle just steep enough to get over the hill 200m behind if that makes sense. I think of it like placing two foot high sandbag on the ground with the bullet impacting 2 inches in front of it and no matter what angle you shoot at as long as the bullet impacts a couple of inches from the backstop the bullet wont have enough space to elevate/ricochet over the sand bag, however if you shoot two feet back it will easily ricochet over the bag. so in my opinion in this instance shooting at 200 yards means the backstop is too far back which would allow the bullet too much room to gain elevation and possibly get over it. I also think this raises an even larger problem which is how many of us can really say we shoot in a place that has no sign of civilisation for 2000 yards, i can tell you that in northern Ireland the chances of answering yes to this is nearly nil.


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Thanks Murph, sadly though i think this thread is only proving that taking a shot with populated buildings even 1500 yards away still carries an element of risk. I think in this situation a 3-400 yard shot would be safe enough in the right place providing i get permission for the hils as the backstop will be close enough to the impact, however i feel the 200 yard shot could ricochet in such a way as to continue at a sligt upward angle just steep enough to get over the hill 200m behind if that makes sense. I think of it like placing two foot high sandbag on the ground with the bullet impacting 2 inches in front of it and no matter what angle you shoot at as long as the bullet impacts a couple of inches from the backstop the bullet wont have enough space to elevate/ricochet over the sand bag, however if you shoot two feet back it will easily ricochet over the bag. so in my opinion in this instance shooting at 200 yards means the backstop is too far back which would allow the bullet too much room to gain elevation and possibly get over it. I also think this raises an even larger problem which is how many of us can really say we shoot in a place that has no sign of civilisation for 2000 yards, i can tell you that in northern Ireland the chances of answering yes to this is nearly nil.

I know exactly what you mean mate. I live in Northern Ireland also and can understand this completely. I work in England a lot of the time and have noticed many times how much bigger the fields are compared to home. The only places you would get no one to that distance would be in really remote mountain regions or the likes. Most of the places that I zero or shoot I will physically walk over them to see how high the bank on the hedges are just to be extra sure. Most of my permission have hedges on about a 3 foot bank which is an ideal backstop as the banks are red clay with virtually no stones in them. I would suggest really looking round your shooting area and remove larger stones out of the equation if feasible. I have done this several times and it helped to give me more confidence in the area.

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If I lived in said farmhouse I'd be happy for you to take opportunistic shots at game with your 222. If you were plinking all day with a 308 all day I'd be concerned. So I suppose I'm disagreeing with the commonly quoted views that:-

1. A shot is safe or it's not, in a binary manner with no middle ground

2. You should reach the same conclusion regardless of what centrefire you're using

 

Every shot you ever fire has risk, and the Internet has made me realise there's a very wide spread of what people deem acceptable levels of risk. I like the frequently quoted posts along the lines of

- put your family at risk down range and re-assess

- justify your decision beginning each sentence with 'your honour'

 

I believe the key factors are

a) Angle of arrival and potential departure and retained energy beyond ricochet

b ) Frangibility of bullet - deformation of bullet and resultant modified BC

c) Bullet weight

 

Keen to see members share their knowledge further on this. To me this is one of the most pertinent questions I've seen posted, and one I've pondered over repeatedly.

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  • 4 weeks later...

I certainly would not like to be living in that house with anybody shooting in my direction.

The Army use a safety template for establishing safe shots, somebody on here may have one.

For a better insight, try and blag some tracers, I did, and almost stopped shooting for a while.

Soft ground with a high organic content is pretty safe, ground with stones or high clay content can be completely un predictable

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I certainly would not like to be living in that house with anybody shooting in my direction.

The Army use a safety template for establishing safe shots, somebody on here may have one.

For a better insight, try and blag some tracers, I did, and almost stopped shooting for a while.

Soft ground with a high organic content is pretty safe, ground with stones or high clay content can be completely un predictable

 

Good points there Joe, I would be interested to see such a piece of literature. interesting thought about the tracers as any footage I have seen of them in use has proven that they are completely wild and totally unpredictable as is any bullet to a point I guess but I do think comparing tracers and even fmj military ammo rules is relevant but slightly misleading as in my case im using highly frangible 40gr vmax or sbk's at a range where they will be carrying more than enough velocity to at least become very unstable and more likely start to break apart ie max 300 yards (thanks to gbal bringing me back down to earth regarding what is realistic to expect from my .222 :P). I do still think that there would not be one single foxing enthusiast on this forum who would pass on a shot on a fox almost anywhere within the red line, I would be very interested if anyone has some info on likely bullet travel/retained energy after a ricochet.

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I am a foxing enthusiast and have to say you are right. Using light ballistic rounds and assuming the area is generally safe there is not a shot in the red line that would bother me much with clear line of sight.

 

Also regarding your original post I would not be concerned unduly if your target was in the box shown, even allowing for where the farm is, assuming you would shoot from where the picture was taken. You are shooting down into the ground from an elevated position and the contours of the surrounding ground are pretty decent.

 

Because of your elevated position I am not sure that the longer shots would be that flat.

 

Many a shooter takes deer off sticks and that can be a nearly flat shot depending on the height of the deer and for sure we never know what rocks etc are behind when we shoot. You have to use your judgement. On the other hand firing multiple rounds into 1 spot is a different scenario.

 

I think you are also right regarding the tracers. My 32grain .204 round breaks up on hitting grass, sometimes with no trace of bullet remaining. FMJs are totally different.

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