.223 and its rivals.

[Big Al]

So much is written about how good the .223 is for varminting to ranges that are considered suitable for this cartridge.

 

Ive been doing some reading on the close alternatives to the .223 running bullets from 55gr downwards and more likely in the 25-40gr range. This brings into the equation calibers like .17 Rem, .204 Ruger, .20 Tac/Prac. I guess to try and debate which is the best sub 400yd varminting round could be a bit like trying to establish what is the best sandwich or pizza (we all have different tastes) but on the other hand I cannot find a thread here which currently does so, so why not?

 

Im sure some of you guys have moved on from the .223 and others feel there is no need, I would love to hear your thoughts as I feel Im getting itchy feet with my .223 and either need to move on from it or or get them well and truly scratched!

[onehole]

Here,s my take ,,,,Ive had many a 223 and enjoyed its performance with 50vmax/52Amax but if I was going for another than it would be an 8 twist variety enabling the 75 Amax to come into play.You see in a real world when your out there and the winds up there,s only one thing that can narrow down your cone of fire an that's from the help of higher BC.Unless its a point and squirt out to 250/300 beyond that most of us are dialling it in,,,,we know the range so a heavier higher BC with not so flat a trajectory is not really a problem.You mention the 17rem etc well yes real point and squirt cals for certain but I have no practical experience of them to compare with 223 performance.

Personally if you have itchy feet then move on up to say a 6BR minimum or a faster 6mm,,,,many choices there,,,,,and certainly would be a better sub 400yd performer with real longrange performance far in excess of the small cals if that's where your heading?

I can also understand the guys that say there is no need and if you don't have too much trouble with wind call out to 400 then yep nothing wrong with the good old 223,,,,lots of bullet choices and economical to run,,,,,yep keep one in the cubhoard ,,,but go get another gun!!!!

[Big Al]

I ran the stats for a 75gr Amax running at 2650fps from a .223, it doesn't seem to stack up at all well against these lighter flatter calibers in a 10mph wind. Even running it faster doesn't seem to improve things much so I don't really get this heavier bullet concept unless you can push it fast enough which then means bigger calibers.

[treetop]

I find that 55gr Vmax @ 3000 fs does the job well enough for me .....

[onehole]

Pretty sure 2800 and more is quite acheivable with the 75?will do somenumber crunching later and get back to this later BigAl unless someone else does in the meantime,,,,,,Oh,,,yep bigger cases/cals,,,,your right that's where most scatch the itch,,,,,,,regds ...O

[gbal]

Al,Onehole: agreed,both!

Lets get the numbers first-ultimately they are decisive for ballistics/drop/wind/energy etc-personal preference is another issue! Data is usual...200y zero,drop/drift in inches 10mph wind energy,ft lb (commercial ammo to keep a relatively level playing field-any hot loading does not change the relative differences) and 200/300/400/500 yards:

 

17 rem 25@4040 BC .190 0/4.8 465 5/11.7 325 15.9/22.6 221 35.6/38.9 145

223 40@3820 Vmax BC .20 0/5 677 5.5/11.9 429 17.6/22.9 338 39.2/39.4 221

223 77@2750 SMK BC .390 0/3.6 906 8.6/8.4 750 25.1/15.7 616 51.3/25.8 503

204 40@3900 Vmax .275 0/3.3 855 4.3/7.8 674 13.2/14.7 526 28.1/24.4 404

 

22/250 40@4150 vmax bc .200 0/4.4 816 4.5/10.6 585 14.3/20.4 410 31.7/34.8 278

223WSM 55@3750 vmax bc .252 0/3.4 1147 4.4/7.9 904 13.6/14.9 704 28.8/24.6 541

243w 58@ 3750vmax bc .252 0/3.9 1090 5/9.2 833 15.4/17.4 627 33/27.2 463

 

OK-the basic law of varminting is upheld,there is a high positive correlation between case capacity (velocity) and performance.

Similar cases (223.204,17 etc will be very similar out to 250/300y)

The next step up(22/250 ) improved max range a bit.

The 6mms class is clearly better,buteverything is getting tricky beyond 400y...if there is wind('cos it varies,and we just can't measure it accurately).

 

There are relatively minor factors,though BC is the biggie-then barrel fast barrel twist widens the options for cartridges that are so available (222 is the 250 y equal,but any fast twist is really custom job).

 

Energy levels are all adequate for crows,rabbits .Fox too,though 17 at 500 is marginal(cf 22rf energy at muzzle is 100ft lb,17 HMR energy at 150y is 100-about the minima acceptable).

 

Afficionados of any of the cf cartridges can make a case for their pet,but the '223' case based really are pretty close in delivered performance,above minima-a bit extra ia always useful,of course.

They differ a little-not much-in shootability,and a mod (and/or a little weight) levels them all further,at least to 'no problem'.

 

The 243,and more 'shootable' 6BR are a step up. They will extend range under very good conditions,and the 6BR especially offers typically excellent accuracy.

The PPCs(22 and 6) are a bit short of the 6BR/243,but excellent at moderate distancs-400?

Remember,I'm talking about 90% hit confidence,not 50%,which to me is unacceptable on sentient targets,and 'first serious shot'(sometimes possible to get 'sighter' off main target).

 

OK,the data should keep us within the laws of physics,but no doubt there are individual views/choices on a variety of other criteria,some valid.Bullet construction/choice is one such,flexible use another,..or cost-though if 10p a shot more makes you compromise on ethical shooting....??

 

We can't though,have claims like the old timer's first exposure to the then new 22/250 "It's dead flat to 400yards,then rises up a little."

 

Enough,already-have fun!

 

gbal

[247sniper]

I ran the stats for a 75gr Amax running at 2650fps from a .223, it doesn't seem to stack up at all well against these lighter flatter calibers in a 10mph wind. Even running it faster doesn't seem to improve things much so I don't really get this heavier bullet concept unless you can push it fast enough which then means bigger calibers.

 

Yeh your a bit low on your numbers there. Try running a 80 grain Amax at 2960ftps with a true BC of .482. see if it stack

s up then this is what my .223AI is running.

 

A standard .223 should be running between 2800- 3000 ftps with 75 amax, i know a guy whos is running at 3030 with 75's.

 

But then ask yourself the question, you said you struggle with the muzzle flip when viewing targets etc through the scope, Heavier bullets will be worse

 

Steve.

[Chickenthief]

You need to go long before it shines.

Wind drift is exponential.

 

Lets take 5mph/2.25m/s side wind.

 

The 17REM is somewhat retarded by the fact that 30gr bullets are nearly impossible to obtain so it will be a 25gr V-MAX (BC .23) and stoke the furnace.

In QL i can get 4200fps/1280m/s

(the last entry is wind drift)

 

100yds/91m = 3520fps/1073m/s ~ ½"/1.25cm

200yds/182m = 3120fps/951m/s ~ 2"/5cm

300yds/273m = 2685fps/818m/s ~ 5"/13cm

400yds/364m = 2310fps/704m/s ~ 9"/23cm

500yds/455m = 1990fps/606m/s ~ 15"/38cm

 

A 204 with a 39gr SIerra (BC .287) can do 3600fps/1100m/s

 

100yds/91m = 3360fps/1055m/s ~ .4"/1cm

200yds/182m = 3070fps/936m/s ~ 1.7"/4.3cm

300yds/273m = 2725fps/831m/s ~ 4"/10cm

400yds/364m = 2420fps/737m/s ~ 7½"/19cm

500yds/455m = 2125fps/648m/s ~ 12½"/32cm

 

The 223 is "sad" in that it holds less powder than the 204 and with a 55gr Hornady V-MAX (.255) "only" does

3280fps/1000m/s

 

100yds/91m = 2870fps/875m/s ~ .7"/2cm

200yds/182m = 2505fps/764m/s ~ 2.3"/6cm

300yds/273m = 2190fps/668m/s ~ 5.5"/14cm

400yds/364m = 1915fps/584m/s ~ 10½"/27cm

500yds/455m = 1675fps/510m/s ~ 17"/43cm

 

With a 75gr Hornady A-MAX (BC .435) it does

2810fps/856m/s

 

100yds/91m = 2600fps/792m/s ~ .4"/1cm

200yds/182m = 2400fps/732m/s ~ 1½"/4cm

300yds/273m = 2220fps/677m/s ~ 3½"/9cm

400yds/364m = 205fps/625m/s ~ 6½"/16½cm

500yds/455m = 1895fps/578m/s ~ 10½"/27cm

 

So all in all if ranges are under 300+yds then speed is king if you want to reach out far to touch 'em then bullet weight and good BC is paramount.

[onehole]

Good informative reply G ,,,,,,thank you,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Just to add then and this is at 5MPH WIND,,,,400 yards and75Amax zero at 200 yards.... 2800fps ,,,22inch drop and 6.42 inches drift

50Vmax "" "" 3350fps....19.41 drop and 10.12 inches drift

 

Coming on for 4 inches less windage is not huge but still significant to warrant the heavies?,,,,,,Just run my 400 yard windage with the humble 6BR at 2800 with 105 Amax and this gives 5.47 of drift.Really up to 400 yards there are gains to be had but beyond the 400 is where things cry out for help.Take care I,m sure there will be some more interesting replies to come,,,,,,O

[Chickenthief]

 

Yeh your a bit low on your numbers there. Try running a 80 grain Amax at 2960ftps with a true BC of .482. see if it stack

s up then this is what my .223AI is running.

 

A standard .223 should be running between 2800- 3000 ftps with 75 amax, i know a guy whos is running at 3030 with 75's.

 

But then ask yourself the question, you said you struggle with the muzzle flip when viewing targets etc through the scope, Heavier bullets will be worse

 

Steve.

Compared to a 55gr bullet a 75gr bullet will eat @2 grains of powder space so the speeds you quote are impossible unless you exeed max SAAMI case length and pressure.

[Big Al]

 

Yeh your a bit low on your numbers there. Try running a 80 grain Amax at 2960ftps with a true BC of .482. see if it stack

s up then this is what my .223AI is running.

 

A standard .223 should be running between 2800- 3000 ftps with 75 amax, i know a guy whos is running at 3030 with 75's.

 

But then ask yourself the question, you said you struggle with the muzzle flip when viewing targets etc through the scope, Heavier bullets will be worse

 

Steve.

 

Ive no intention of using 75's Steve and didn't bring them into the discussion, the OP was all about bullet weights of 55gr or less. If I wanted to shoot heavier bullets I would get a bigger caliber.

[pork chop]

don't think there is a best sub 400 round as all the popular rounds will do the job well.I've had a 223 for years but changed to 204 and 22 Br and they all perform just as well as each other ,but if i had to choose it would be the 22 Br for me with a 50 gr vmax @ 3950 its just plain fun

[gbal]

Thanks,Chickentheif-your calculated data make the wind drift point well (as ever,it's consistent with the physics-especially the advantage of BC with moderate distance(at extreme distance,all is close to random!)

Just to underline the difference between the 39g@3600 and 75@ 2810,at 500y is 2 inches drift in a modest 5mph wind.

The real issue-unlike drop-is that there is some error in assessing wind (especialy as it is virtually never constant all the way out,or moment to moment)-let's say 20 % (you allow for 5mph,but it fluctuates 4-6 mph)-the error is then 20% of 2 inches,just .4-it might be under or over.Lets say about an inch?

 

So upping the ante cartridge/bullet wise means about an inch gain( in probable point of impact accuracy) in a 10/12 " window at 500y.

Hmmmm better to wait for the wind to drop!

 

g

[Sherlock]

A tight twist 223 (or AI) is a great choice and is just such a versatile calibre .

 

A standard 8 twist will still fire a very frangible and explosive 50 / 60 gran bullets at good speeds and is superb for general shooting and foxing ....etc. Incidentally , All 3 of my rifles would also shoot pretty well , with 40 grn Noslers at 3715 fps for even flatter - point and squirt shooting getting about 0.7 MOA,... And was certainly accurate enough to dispatch a lot of fox and bunnies..

 

My experience of owning and running three 8 twist Tikka rifles - all rifles would fire a 55 grn SBK at over 3350fps or a 60 grn Vmax at 3280 fps ( this was its standard fodder) I had really good success dialling in on calm ( ish ) days out to 500 yrds

 

Then I simply developed a longer range load, using 75 grn Amax over Vit 140 - gave me 2860 fps and 0.3 MOA accuracy. I have flattened literally hundred's of vermin using this load in all three rifles out to 800 yrs.

 

It does all this for about 25 grn of powder - gives very low recoil and literally thousands of rounds without worrying about barrel life.

 

ATB

S

[Paddy_SP]

All the .204 numbers that I could see above were based on the 39 or 40 grain bullets. I use 32's and find that they'll knock a fox over as far out as I can see it with the NV. My best distance shot in darkness was 293 yards - on the ground around here I don't need to shoot any further than that.

[247sniper]

Ive no intention of using 75's Steve and didn't bring them into the discussion, the OP was all about bullet weights of 55gr or less. If I wanted to shoot heavier bullets I would get a bigger caliber.

O ok fella no worrys. It was just the way you said you plugged in the figers and they didn't stack up....it sounded like you were interested and then put off.

 

Steve

[247sniper]

Ive no intention of using 75's Steve and didn't bring them into the discussion, the OP was all about bullet weights of 55gr or less. If I wanted to shoot heavier bullets I would get a bigger caliber.

O ok fella no worrys. It was just the way you said you plugged in the figers and they didn't stack up....it sounded like you were interested and then put off.

 

Steve

Compared to a 55gr bullet a 75gr bullet will eat @2 grains of powder space so the speeds you quote are impossible unless you exeed max SAAMI case length and pressure.

Shot and tested over 3 chronos fella.

 

My 80 grain Amax load of 24.8 grains is not a compressed load, nore is there any presure signs, there is pressure signs if i go up .5 of a grain.

 

So you wrong and its definatly not impossible like you suggest.

 

 

Steve

[gbal]

All the .204 numbers that I could see above were based on the 39 or 40 grain bullets. I use 32's and find that they'll knock a fox over as far out as I can see it with the NV. My best distance shot in darkness was 293 yards - on the ground around here I don't need to shoot any further than that.

I think that is pretty much my point,though 204 32@4225 is 4.1/ 9.8 and 512 ft lb at 300.Pretty comparable to all the others-all of which produce very similar results-fox terminal.

Beyond 400,the better BCs start to have some,not big,advantages....but that is really beyond sensible range....as you say!

gbal

[247sniper]

Ive no intention of using 75's Steve and didn't bring them into the discussion, the OP was all about bullet weights of 55gr or less. If I wanted to shoot heavier bullets I would get a bigger caliber.

O ok fella no worrys. It was just the way you said you plugged in the figers and they didn't stack up....it sounded like you were interested and then put off.

 

Steve

Compared to a 55gr bullet a 75gr bullet will eat @2 grains of powder space so the speeds you quote are impossible unless you exeed max SAAMI case length and pressure.

Shot and tested over 3 chronos fella.

 

My 80 grain Amax load of 24.8 grains is not a compressed load, nore is there any presure signs, there is pressure signs if i go up .5 of a grain.

 

So you wrong and its definatly not impossible like you suggest.

 

 

Steve

You need to go long before it shines.

Wind drift is exponential.

 

Lets take 5mph/2.25m/s side wind.

 

The 17REM is somewhat retarded by the fact that 30gr bullets are nearly impossible to obtain so it will be a 25gr V-MAX (BC .23) and stoke the furnace.

In QL i can get 4200fps/1280m/s

(the last entry is wind drift)

 

100yds/91m = 3520fps/1073m/s ~ ½"/1.25cm

200yds/182m = 3120fps/951m/s ~ 2"/5cm

300yds/273m = 2685fps/818m/s ~ 5"/13cm

400yds/364m = 2310fps/704m/s ~ 9"/23cm

500yds/455m = 1990fps/606m/s ~ 15"/38cm

 

A 204 with a 39gr SIerra (BC .287) can do 3600fps/1100m/s

 

100yds/91m = 3360fps/1055m/s ~ .4"/1cm

200yds/182m = 3070fps/936m/s ~ 1.7"/4.3cm

300yds/273m = 2725fps/831m/s ~ 4"/10cm

400yds/364m = 2420fps/737m/s ~ 7½"/19cm

500yds/455m = 2125fps/648m/s ~ 12½"/32cm

 

The 223 is "sad" in that it holds less powder than the 204 and with a 55gr Hornady V-MAX (.255) "only" does

3280fps/1000m/s

 

100yds/91m = 2870fps/875m/s ~ .7"/2cm

200yds/182m = 2505fps/764m/s ~ 2.3"/6cm

300yds/273m = 2190fps/668m/s ~ 5.5"/14cm

400yds/364m = 1915fps/584m/s ~ 10½"/27cm

500yds/455m = 1675fps/510m/s ~ 17"/43cm

 

With a 75gr Hornady A-MAX (BC .435) it does

2810fps/856m/s

 

100yds/91m = 2600fps/792m/s ~ .4"/1cm

200yds/182m = 2400fps/732m/s ~ 1½"/4cm

300yds/273m = 2220fps/677m/s ~ 3½"/9cm

400yds/364m = 205fps/625m/s ~ 6½"/16½cm

500yds/455m = 1895fps/578m/s ~ 10½"/27cm

 

So all in all if ranges are under 300+yds then speed is king if you want to reach out far to touch 'em then bullet weight and good BC is paramount.

I have a .204 as well, a custom. That shoot the 39 SBK out of my rifle at 3750ftps. The advised manufactures BC of .287 and hornady 40 grain .204 bullet BC of .275 are both false when tested in a real life sinario. The 39SBK has a true BC off .251 and the 40 vmax is more like .240, like the Nossler 40 grain bullet is advitised at.

 

When you plug in the real figures out past 400 yards and with real life rifle data you will see one hell of a differance.

 

Out of choise from someone who owns both rifles and has a lot of experience of both. SUB 350 yards speed is king and id pick my .204 any day of the week, out past 350 yards has to be the High BC 80 grain Amax.

 

Steve

[gbal]

Sherlock,impressive shooting,at the longer ranges .

With 75 amax@ 2860 ,the drop/drift at 800y is about 212/37 inches with a 5mph breeze.Any advice on how to make accurate wind assessments out to 800-even a 1% error means .4 inch out,and even a .3moa rifle,at 100,in a near perfect world will be no better than 3 inches at 800yards.

So that's near enough 31/2 inches,assuming near perfection-which is ...errr...? unlikely!

That's a miss pretty often on crows,some on rabbits ...and not too clever on fox....

... first shot hits.....possible,but how about misses...

Look forward to the wind doping advice ( even with no wind,it's good going,not elementary to us Watsons).

gbal

[snaggletooth]

Interesting thread.......... I'm having the same dillema myself, although I'm stepping up from hmr.........

 

 

I have a .204 as well, a custom. That shoot the 39 SBK out of my rifle at 3750ftps. The advised manufactures BC of .287 and hornady 40 grain .204 bullet BC of .275 are both false when tested in a real life sinario. The 39SBK has a true BC off .251 and the 40 vmax is more like .240, like the Nossler 40 grain bullet is advitised at.

When you plug in the real figures out past 400 yards and with real life rifle data you will see one hell of a differance.

Out of choise from someone who owns both rifles and has a lot of experience of both. SUB 350 yards speed is king and id pick my .204 any day of the week, out past 350 yards has to be the High BC 80 grain Amax.

Steve

 

Steve, shooting the 204 and 223 side by side, are the advantages of the 20cal, that are shown in the figures above, borne out in a real world situation?

 

Davey

[247sniper]

Interesting thread.......... I'm having the same dillema myself, although I'm stepping up from hmr.........

 

 

 

Steve, shooting the 204 and 223 side by side, are the advantages of the 20cal, that are shown in the figures above, borne out in a real world situation?

 

Davey

 

 

In the real world Davey, out too 350 yards the .204's are mustard, fast, flat shooting and very good in the wind. They are better then a 40 grain bullet from a .223 with a decent charge behind it, but in the field there is not much in it. A .223 Ackley Improved with a 52 Amax would be very close also with some decent smack to it.

 

IMO with out doubt if you are shooting upto fox only and vermin out to 350 - 400 yards then id pick up the .204 any day of the week, the advantages from the likes of the high BC 80 Amaxs from my .223 Ackley only come into play past 350 yards and greatly so and i do mean greatly after 500 yards. The difference out to past 600 + yards is just incredible with the (.482 BC) 80 Amax's

 

Hope this help you out fella?

 

If you stepping up from HMR the either a 223 or a .204 is a massive "STEP up" but out to 350 yards which is far enough for most people id choose the .204.

 

But I would check to see if you can get the reloading components first, that's another story but believe it is no on the up

 

 

 

Steve

[Si-Snipe]

A tight twist 223 (or AI) is a great choice and is just such a versatile calibre .

 

A standard 8 twist will still fire a very frangible and explosive 50 / 60 gran bullets at good speeds and is superb for general shooting and foxing ....etc. Incidentally , All 3 of my rifles would also shoot pretty well , with 40 grn Noslers at 3715 fps for even flatter - point and squirt shooting getting about 0.7 MOA,... And was certainly accurate enough to dispatch a lot of fox and bunnies..

 

My experience of owning and running three 8 twist Tikka rifles - all rifles would fire a 55 grn SBK at over 3350fps or a 60 grn Vmax at 3280 fps ( this was its standard fodder) I had really good success dialling in on calm ( ish ) days out to 500 yrds

 

Then I simply developed a longer range load, using 75 grn Amax over Vit 140 - gave me 2860 fps and 0.3 MOA accuracy. I have flattened literally hundred's of vermin using this load in all three rifles out to 800 yrs.

 

It does all this for about 25 grn of powder - gives very low recoil and literally thousands of rounds without worrying about barrel life.

 

ATB

S

This is why I've moved from 1:12 223AI to 1:7 223. The plan is to shoot 75 / 80 Amax at vermin and targets to around 650. All else I have 140 Amax.

I've had 17 Rem and 204. They all do the job but if you have good backstops and dial or know your holdover slinging large Amax is always going to be more consistent especially on breezy conditions.

[247sniper]

This is why I've moved from 1:12 223AI to 1:7 223. The plan is to shoot 75 / 80 Amax at vermin and targets to around 650. All else I have 140 Amax.

I've had 17 Rem and 204. They all do the job but if you have good backstops and dial or know your holdover slinging large Amax is always going to be more consistent especially on breezy conditions.

 

 

Spot on Si, O and welcome to the heavey weight .223 club lol

[Paddy_SP]

I think the posts above have shown very well what does what, calibre wise. The real question therefore centres on what kind of shooting you do. If you're always going to use a truck gun over longer ranges, then the higher weight bullets will pay off. If, however, you're (like me) shooting on foot for most of the time, then the .204 is hard to beat. After all, you won't be shooting at anything at 800 yards off sticks!