Hypersensitive to wind...

[Brad Y]

Hi all

 

Shooting my 284S on the weekend which Im still trying to figure out 100%. So I have a load that at 600m holds the X ring in vertical. Awesome. But I have a problem that Im getting really bad wind drift. I shot alongside some 308's and they scored 4's at the worst. I scored a 3 in the same conditions.

 

Im testing my scope out today to prove its holding windage fine, but wondering if anyone else has encountered projectiles that are extrememly affected by wind. My own 308 shot much better in the wind also that day... its got me a little puzzled.

[Elwood]

You don't say what projectile, but presumably either a 180 vld or Hybrid, you also don't state a velocity.

 

If you're holding the X ring for vertical then you have a accurate load, where it goes left or right is down to you I'm afraid.

[Brad Y]

I found the problem a couple of hours ago..

 

Yes 180VLD Approx 2930fps. But the horizontal wasnt me. I shot it myself and had another shooter do it as well at 200m and couldnt hold a 3" group. The scope isnt holding POI horizontally. It was hammering only a few weeks ago, but on the weekend it let me down bad. Now I know why.

[gbal]

You don't say what projectile, but presumably either a 180 vld or Hybrid, you also don't state a velocity.

 

 

If you're holding the X ring for vertical then you have a accurate load, where it goes left or right is down to you I'm afraid.

You don't say what projectile, but presumably either a 180 vld or Hybrid, you also don't state a velocity

 

 

 

 

 

......but how far it drifts is a BC and velocity issue.

 

Brad,you imply your 308 -and therefore you-was shooting OK- so was the 284 grouping ok (in the 3 ring)? One explanation-from what you have said,and decent BC bullets-is that your velocity was low-you could check your powder load and vertical adjustment ,to get some idea of velocity,if your scope is OK-you aren't too clear on the scope ? (or chrono the loads?)

 

 

Ahh...it was the scope(your post just received).OK -always seemed a technical/mechanical problem ,rather than a human one! Glad it's resolved (284S usually behaves!)

[bradders]

I found the problem a couple of hours ago..

 

Yes 180VLD Approx 2930fps. But the horizontal wasnt me. I shot it myself and had another shooter do it as well at 200m and couldnt hold a 3" group. The scope isnt holding POI horizontally. It was hammering only a few weeks ago, but on the weekend it let me down bad. Now I know why.

Interested to hear what make the scope is

[Elwood]

You don't say what projectile, but presumably either a 180 vld or Hybrid, you also don't state a velocity

 

 

 

 

 

......but how far it drifts is a BC and velocity issue.

 

 

 

Which is why I asked what the velocity and choice of bullet was.

[gbal]

Which is why I asked what the velocity and choice of bullet was.

Ian,sorry,I was not 'correcting' you-I saw you asked about velocity.Maybe I didn't put it clearly-I was just trying to soften your 'down to you' comment,as unexpected low velocity might have been the cause,or scope error-as indeed it turned out,rather than 'down to shooter' .

[Elwood]

Nothing to worry about George, but even if was down to a low velocity, it's still down to the trigger puller.

 

Brad, let us know how you get on.

 

The 284 Shehane is for my money the best all round cartridge for long range shooting. Having to fire form is the only negative about it, and of course the fact that they simply love H4831SC (Black gold in the UK)

[Brad Y]

The scope is a sightron SIII 8-32 with the 1/8 clicks. Ive got another exactly the same will put it on this gun and send the other away.

 

We have plenty of H4831sc here (we make the stuff) Its called 2213sc here. I actually rate it as very dirty and I dont like the stuff. I have H4350 or 2209 but Im actually not using that either. Hopefully by this weekend I will have proved that my load is accurate and capable of winning the three upcoming prize shoots.

[Elwood]

 

 

We have plenty of H4831sc here (we make the stuff) Its called 2213sc here. I actually rate it as very dirty and I dont like the stuff. .

 

How to piss off the United Kingdom

 

Good luck with the competition.

[Brad Y]

Its ok, you guys have probably have better access to reloader and vit powders that some of us prefer to use. The US guys get cranky too when they cant get our powders but when we struggle to get barrels, primers, actions, brass etc well it all works out.

[gbal]

Brad, your reminder that interuptions in supply,especially of non domestically produced goodies is timely-given the Commonwealth games in Glasgow,once the home of Nobel powders,which I was weaned on.

 

No one has it all,and some of the price differentials are quite marked!So much for thr global market place,though to be fair,some differences are essentially 'political/ government imposed'.

 

Meanwhile,your comments on the Shehane and 4831sc interest me,as a user (well almost non user at the moment).What powders are favoured out your way-especially in the Vihtavuori series,which we can get in UK?

Some shooters can become a bit tunnel visioned about 'must have' powders,and 50 fps,and alternate experience can be revealing,and helpful until world economics restores our pet talcums.

george

[Brad Y]

George

 

Try N165. Our national F Class titles was won recently by a shooting using that powder. He dropped 5 points over 3 days, and I believe he won the daily aggregate on the second day of the individuals at the FCWC in Raton too. We dont push shehanes here and let the BC of the bullet do the work. 2750-2850 is where they work really accurate. Great barrel life and great case life too. Im trying some of the reloader powders at the moment, 22 is looking ok. I dont like 17 purely for its temp sensitivity thats very well written about. Just cant get confident with it. 19 is a little harder to find and not many people speak of it. The non ADI powders seem more dirty but they have alot more graphite which I think contributes to this. But the carbon fouling from them seems much easier to remove than the ADI powders, especially if left to go more than 50-80 shots without cleaning.

[gbal]

Brad,many thanks-I had decided to use V165,but your observations on modest -or at least sub max-velocity are interesting indeed.I generally see pushing for ultimate fps (2900+) as an expensive strategy,wrt accuracy,and costs-so it's reassuring to see a compatible view!

I'll play with it around 2800,and see how it goes.

g

[Brad Y]

George

 

By no means am I an expert, and honestly my shehane isnt tuned to the level where im happy to use it in a match yet. But I pushed velocity for ages trying to make it heaps better than my 260 improved ballistically which shoots unbelievably well at 1000yds. Everyone seems to have better results with the 7's at lower velocity, but a big thing was losing cases to loose primer pockets when pushing them. And honestly Im just about done with pushing for velocity as well. At 1000yds the 7's still have an edge over the 6.5's on paper. But til my 7 shoots as tight as the 6.5 I know what Im sticking with in a match.

[gbal]

Brad,more thanks.Snap to your thoughts.My 6.5x55 AI seems pretty good too,though the 7S will have a ballistic edge,absolute accuracy is probably an individual rifle thing.

German Salazar put the conundrum quite well:

 

"Velocity fades,but BC is forever"

[That bald headed Geordie]

George

 

Try N165. Our national F Class titles was won recently by a shooting using that powder. He dropped 5 points over 3 days, and I believe he won the daily aggregate on the second day of the individuals at the FCWC in Raton too. We dont push shehanes here and let the BC of the bullet do the work. 2750-2850 is where they work really accurate. Great barrel life and great case life too. Im trying some of the reloader powders at the moment, 22 is looking ok. I dont like 17 purely for its temp sensitivity thats very well written about. Just cant get confident with it. 19 is a little harder to find and not many people speak of it. The non ADI powders seem more dirty but they have alot more graphite which I think contributes to this. But the carbon fouling from them seems much easier to remove than the ADI powders, especially if left to go more than 50-80 shots without cleaning.

Hi Brad. I to am using Viht N165 with the Berger 180grain Hybrid in my .284 Win and during load development last week it seems to like somewhere between 56 and 57 grains. The Mvs are between 2825fps and 2886fps. Will be trying these loads out this weekend at the Diggle Flyshoot comp at 500yds to see how they do.

[Laurie]

Although the OP reckons it was a faulty scope, the discussion touched on one of those fascinating long-range target shooting issues that simple external ballistics via apps and ballistic programs don't help with. What I mean is the issue where a particular bullet design fired from a good barrel with a rifling twist within a particular range, likewise with an MV falling within generally know parameters usually performs exceptionally well.

 

That definition of exceptional performance is usually seen in terms of holding elevation, and as Elwood says, the other (windage) bit is down to the shooter. I'm 90% in agreement, but there is a 10% doubt element as I have seen loads that will produce horizontal straight line groups during load development, or throw the occasional really bad lateral flier out of an otherwise good group. It's interesting as to how many people will say 'wind' even in 100yd testing, or 'it was probably me'. It may be the latter, but I've repeated firing some combinations where I've seen this with some rifles and got the exact same results second time around. To me a flier is a flier is a flier and in some ways a lateral flier is worse than a vertical one in a L-R match as one does a corrected wind plot off the last shot and a bullet that goes an MOA or more sideways due to an unhappy load makes that corrected wind worse than useless falsely suggesting there was a significant wind shift.

 

So far as 284 powders go, I'm another satisfied N165 user in the absence of H4831sc, but have also found IMR-4831 to be a good substitute for the Hodgdon version. I also tried Re19 yesterday at short range with the Berger 168gn and found it very promising - dirty though as mentioned, albeit a soft and easily removed muck (at any rate with cleaning straight after use).

 

N165's pros and cons are opposite sides of a single coin - it's a very low energy propellant, a mere 3,500J / g specific energy, which allied to its burning rate and specific density means compressed loads to get a 180 to anything much over 2,800 fps in the straight 284. The upside is a low specific energy and a reputation for cool burning is likely to give exceptional barrel life. Ex US F-Class champion and longtime 284 user Danny Biggs opined on an AccurateShooter forum thread recently that 2,800-2,850 fps and N165 would likely produce 3,000 + rounds barrel life even in US string shooting usage. (The counter argument is: "So what, if it's uncompetitive?")

 

H4831sc SE is 3,870 J/g and that of IMR-4831 is 3,720 for comparison; Re17 / Elcho 17 / RS60 is 3,990 J/g, and Viht N560 4,020 J/g.

[Brad Y]

Laurie

 

I will be able to confirm the scope on sunday as I have a brand new one to try out. Will put the suspect one on a 308 with a known good load to prove it.

 

As a bit of proof, I shot a 59.6X on a 400m ICFRA target only the week before then a 55.0 and then a 50.0 the following week at 600m. That 59.6 had one stray shot at 9 oclock and it was called due to a flag rising, but the rest was nicely sitting on the right side of the X ring with about 3 bullet holes in vertical. The 600m event I was back and forth in the 5 ring each side of the X, it threw a 3 out to the left then came back into the middle again. Our range has pine trees down the side and with a 308 its rare to have to hold much more than the outside of the 5 ring. Will be able to confirm it sunday like I said, we are shooting 500m.

 

As you say, if 165 is a fairly low energy powder its probably well suited to the shehane to run the speeds people do here.