Buying a Lee Enfield - what to look for or avoid

[MrCetrizine]

Hi, I'm going to buy a Lee Enfield next week. I'm aiming for a good MkIII but may go for a No 4 depending on availability.

 

Can anyone give me advice on what to look for, what to check or what to avoid.

 

I've fired Lee Enfields but never got a chance to properly fondle them to get a feel for what makes a good one.

 

It's going to spend the rest of its natural life being shot so I want to make sure I get one that's fit for the job.

 

Thanks

[hunter87]

Check all the serial numbers match up for a start

[terryh]

MrC

 

If it is just for shooting I believe C&C have put together some real nice shooters from parts and good barrels.

 

If it is for collecting rather than shooting there is probably a whole World of things to take into account.

 

T

[walkabout]

MrCetirizine

As Terry says if its for shooting, get a good one it will save heartache later on.

Have a look at my website in the blogs section, I have just sold a Mk2 No4 vertually unissued.

Very nice and accurate

 

Mark

[bradders]

Check all the serial numbers match up for a start

That doesn't mean anything

[sako 75 .243]

That doesn't mean anything

 

I always thought having matching serial numbers on a vintage gun was a must??....does that not apply with Enfields?

[Shuggy]

I think that bradders means that a rifle with matched parts can still be knackered. The best bet is to buy from a reputable dealer. I have heard good things about Highwood and EFD. I bought mine a few years ago from Seth Ellett, a well known Lee Enfield collector. However he said that he was selling up to emigrate and he may well have done so.

[hunter87]

That doesn't mean anything

Well it means that all the parts have stayed together with the rifle for all of its service life rather than being made from any number of different rifles thus being more likley to be a good fit and finish also if the rifle is one serial number you can more accuratley tell when it was made and its history i know which one id rather buy

[sako 75 .243]

Well it means that all the parts have stayed together with the rifle for all of its service life rather than being made from any number of different rifles thus being more likley to be a good fit and finish also if the rifle is one serial number you can more accuratley tell when it was made and its history i know which one id rather buy

 

That's what I was always led to believe!

[Andrew]

Matching numbers it a plus but the lack doesn't eftect it's shootability. I have many Lee Enfields and I prefer the #1's. My 1914 LSA is probably one of the best shooting Lee's I own. I'm guessing my minty #1, MkVI will outshoot it but that particular rifle is too valuable to shoot. I recently bought a 1906 #1, Mk I by Sparkbrook that has a few bits mismatched tho the major ones (bolt, action, barrel, sights...) do match. It is a superb shooter

 

My best shooting #4's are a pair of #4 MkII's and a No4 Mk1 made at the Longbranch Arsenal in Canada. It has a 2 groove barrel and shoots cast bullets like a match rifle.~Andrew

[gbal]

MrC, As you say your rifle is going to be shot,not simply collected,then shooting performance is clearly important. Matching numbers,as others have noted,has some possible advantages,but really only says the rifle was assembled at the same time-not how well that was done,and it does not say anything at all about it's current state or performance.Only way to tell that is to shoot it.There may well be other things to check,but given equal shooters,then the matching numbers is the obvious choice,though I imagine for a premium? You are buying what is now,not what was then,and you don't know how good/not it was then anyhow.

For performance,matching numbers are neither necessary nor sufficient,though overall,desirable for other reasons,like provenance-nice to have-but not if every shot disappoints.

Gbal

[MOOSE]

Matching numbers it a plus but the lack doesn't eftect it's shootability. I have many Lee Enfields and I prefer the #1's. My 1914 LSA is probably one of the best shooting Lee's I own. I'm guessing my minty #1, MkVI will outshoot it but that particular rifle is too valuable to shoot. I recently bought a 1906 #1, Mk I by Sparkbrook that has a few bits mismatched tho the major ones (bolt, action, barrel, sights...) do match. It is a superb shooter

 

My best shooting #4's are a pair of #4 MkII's and a No4 Mk1 made at the Longbranch Arsenal in Canada. It has a 2 groove barrel and shoots cast bullets like a match rifle.~Andrew

Hi Andrew,

Just how many times did they put the serial number on a gun,

Thanks

[bradders]

I think that bradders means that a rifle with matched parts can still be knackered. The best bet is to buy from a reputable dealer. I have heard good things about Highwood and EFD. I bought mine a few years ago from Seth Ellett, a well known Lee Enfield collector. However he said that he was selling up to emigrate and he may well have done so.

No, what I mean is that many rifles went back into armouries for updating/repair etc, and didn't necessarily come back out with the matching numbers.

FWIW, I'd be very suspicious of some rifles that have all matching numbers, unless provenance can be proved

[MrCetrizine]

I've discovered that a member of one of my clubs owns at least one of every Lee Enfield ever made, including I'm told, a Holland & Holland No. 4 T and has an encyclopaedic/obsessive knowledge of them. So I'm going to wait until I can get her to come with me while buying one.

 

Thanks for all the usual good advice that UKV guarantees.

[bradders]

I've discovered that a member of one of my clubs owns at least one of every Lee Enfield ever made, including I'm told, a Holland & Holland No. 4 T and has an encyclopaedic/obsessive knowledge of them. So I'm going to wait until I can get her to come with me while buying one.

Thanks for all the usual good advice that UKV guarantees.

All No4T's were built by Holland & Holland, unless they were built by Long Branch in Canada, of which there were only 300 or so built, including my as new, all matching and unfired example :-)

 

My other No4T is a BSA and has a mk3 Telescope.

This isn't the original scope for the rifle, as it's had the numbers for the MK's 1 &2 scopes it's been matched with over the years struck out and the new number stamped in.

This was standard practise and that's why I say not to pay too much credence to what may or may not be marked on it

[hunter87]

All No4T's were built by Holland & Holland, unless they were built by Long Branch in Canada, of which there were only 300 or so built, including my as new, all matching and unfired example :-)

My other No4T is a BSA and has a mk3 Telescope.

This isn't the original scope for the rifle, as it's had the numbers for the MK's 1 &2 scopes it's been matched with over the years struck out and the new number stamped in.

This was standard practise and that's why I say not to pay too much credence to what may or may not be marked on it

[hunter87]

All No4T's were built by Holland & Holland, unless they were built by Long Branch in Canada, of which there were only 300 or so built, including my as new, all matching and unfired example :-)

My other No4T is a BSA and has a mk3 Telescope.

This isn't the original scope for the rifle, as it's had the numbers for the MK's 1 &2 scopes it's been matched with over the years struck out and the new number stamped in.

This was standard practise and that's why I say not to pay too much credence to what may or may not be marked on it

FIREARMS AND UNFIRED don't belong in the same sentence

[bradders]

FIREARMS AND UNFIRED don't belong in the same sentence

Thank you for your constructive input

[gbal]

FIREARMS AND UNFIRED don't belong in the same sentence

 

Don't most start out unfired? Most will be fired,some a lot more than others,usually to their detriment.....but I see what''s meant...with a few exceptions for especially collectable examples....nice to start with a mint one,though.

Gbal

[Chris]

All No4T's were built by Holland & Holland, unless they were built by Long Branch in Canada, of which there were only 300 or so built, including my as new, all matching and unfired example :-)

My other No4T is a BSA and has a mk3 Telescope.

This isn't the original scope for the rifle, as it's had the numbers for the MK's 1 &2 scopes it's been matched with over the years struck out and the new number stamped in.

This was standard practise and that's why I say not to pay too much credence to what may or may not be marked on it

Off topic a bit but that unfired No4T must be rare beast indeed. A friend at my local club was telling me about a bloke who was trying to a load of unfired examples years back before the semi loading rifle ban for £600 in crates with all the bits. Said nobody was interested when you could buy an SLR.

[gbal]

Don't most start out unfired? Most will be fired,some a lot more than others,usually to their detriment.....but I see what''s meant...with a few exceptions for especially collectable examples....nice to start with a mint one,though.

Gbal

A Winchester 73,one of one thousand,in 80% condition might fetch 1/4 to 1/2 $million.Can you imagine what a mint ,unfired one --especially a presentation model,with provenance-would be likely to raise at auction? Best not fire it! On the other hand,if you come across outlaw Bob Dalton's Colt revolver,it has been fired,part of it's grim attraction,so you could pop off a few shots,and still get much the same sum.....

Sorry,off topic- Lee Enfields are collectable,but not likely to get in the above league!

Gbal

[MrCetrizine]

Well that was easy. I got her phone number from the club, gave her a call and asked if she'd be willing to help me out. She said she had 3 spares that she'd be willing to sell and she was on her way to the club anyway.

 

2 were MkIII* in very well used condition and one was a No4 Mk 1 with some service history paperwork.

 

At first glance the bore in the No4 looked pristine and after I shot a 3 inch group at 100m with it, I was sold.

 

It was made in early 1944, issued in early 1945 but never saw service. It then looks to have been used for cadet training until 1957 when it had a damaged bolt replaced. It's story ends there but the bore hardly looks fired.

 

I'm happy now.

Thanks all.

[Andrew]

Hi Andrew,

Just how many times did they put the serial number on a gun,

Thanks

 

RFI (Indian) are the onely ones I've seen with serial numbered magazines, but receiver, bolt, rear sight (#1's) and barrel and nose cap are usually numbered. Stock sometimes. Now, it is not uncommon to see a serial number struck out and a new number stamped above it. I have a #1 that went to Ireland and was renumbered in that fashion.~Andrew

[Andrew]

No, what I mean is that many rifles went back into armouries for updating/repair etc, and didn't necessarily come back out with the matching numbers.

FWIW, I'd be very suspicious of some rifles that have all matching numbers, unless provenance can be proved

 

 

I have many of them with matching numbers and I don't distrust the lineage of any of them. Back when the 303's were coming into the US by the boat load I would pass up a rifle because a single part was mis matched. (Young and stupid) Usually the nose cap/front sight protector. That said, matching numbers were usually the norm with these imported guns>~Andrew

[MOOSE]

RFI (Indian) are the onely ones I've seen with serial numbered magazines, but receiver, bolt, rear sight (#1's) and barrel and nose cap are usually numbered. Stock sometimes. Now, it is not uncommon to see a serial number struck out and a new number stamped above it. I have a #1 that went to Ireland and was renumbered in that fashion.~Andrew

Thanks for the reply Andrew