Dan534 Posted October 8, 2011 Report Share Posted October 8, 2011 Found the bellow clip, Just wondering what peoples thoughts are on .308 barrel length, how short would people be willing to go. Lots of makers such as Tac Ops and GA Precision seem to be following the trend fitting 22,20 or even 18 inches in this calibre, and even AI and Sako offer 20 inchers as standard. Wondering what the pros and cons are and if you really loose anything over the 24 or 26 inch offerings, and also what rifling twist people recommend for shorter barrels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratwhiskers Posted October 9, 2011 Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 Ah yes Frank's little toy, lovely isn't it!. We've spoken to both Frank and Jacob as well as the crew at GAP and several other promenant rifle loonies, and have had a large number of ideas and concepts confirmed, here's one...... The use of the 18" barrel in a .308 is simple. You are still within the barrel length that will allow for most powders to burn efficiently and give you sufficient velocity to make it a viable cartridge (Deer legal, extended range shooting, etc...) Most factory barrels twist 1-12" but if you wish to shoot/stabilise the heavier bullets especially in a short barrel, you would be better served with a 1-10". We build the "Ratel" rifle that is chambered and bored to run both hunting and medium/heavy match bullets out of an 18" barrel more efficiently, this will allow a 175grn SMK or better to be shot to 1000yrds. You can run the .308 shorter, but you start to run into problems with muzzle blast and dramatic loss of performance below 18". At 18" you are duplicating (when set up right) the .303 Enfield and that as we know (except for the Coolade idiots) is no slouch. I run a 20" factory Rem 1-12" out to 900yrds+ with no problems, two of my loadings are 110grn v-max's doing roughly 3100f/ps and 175grn SMK's at 2750f/ps, in Africa last year Zaitsev (18" + 190 SMK's) and myself (20" + 155 Scenars) were hitting a target the size of a sweety tin lid at 3000ft+ of altitude and 1200yrds out! (I checked the range latter on maping to confirm) So you figure it out, were our forefarthers wrong with their .303's sighted for 1500yrds+ or can we play the ballistics game and use a modern cartridge more efficiently/practically........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan534 Posted October 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 Ah yes Frank's little toy, lovely isn't it!. We've spoken to both Frank and Jacob as well as the crew at GAP and several other promenant rifle loonies, and have had a large number of ideas and concepts confirmed, here's one...... The use of the 18" barrel in a .308 is simple. You are still within the barrel length that will allow for most powders to burn efficiently and give you sufficient velocity to make it a viable cartridge (Deer legal, extended range shooting, etc...) Most factory barrels twist 1-12" but if you wish to shoot/stabilise the heavier bullets especially in a short barrel, you would be better served with a 1-10". We build the "Ratel" rifle that is chambered and bored to run both hunting and medium/heavy match bullets out of an 18" barrel more efficiently, this will allow a 175grn SMK or better to be shot to 1000yrds. You can run the .308 shorter, but you start to run into problems with muzzle blast and dramatic loss of performance below 18". At 18" you are duplicating (when set up right) the .303 Enfield and that as we know (except for the Coolade idiots) is no slouch. I run a 20" factory Rem 1-12" out to 900yrds+ with no problems, two of my loadings are 110grn v-max's doing roughly 3100f/ps and 175grn SMK's at 2750f/ps, in Africa last year Zaitsev (18" + 190 SMK's) and myself (20" + 155 Scenars) were hitting a target the size of a sweety tin lid at 3000ft+ of altitude and 1200yrds out! (I checked the range latter on maping to confirm) So you figure it out, were our forefarthers wrong with their .303's sighted for 1500yrds+ or can we play the ballistics game and use a modern cartridge more efficiently/practically........... Thanks for the write up. Its a nice toy, and very handy, he seems to like it. Need to see this "Ratel" Ive seen the action but not the finished rifle. Dan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejg223 Posted October 9, 2011 Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 The July/August edition of the NZ Hunter had an interesting article about shortening a 308 to 16" and achieving great performance by using H335. Using 130gr barnes TTSX with max 51gr H335 3035fps. Also managed to push a 120gr barnes to 3000fps out of a 16" 7-08 with H335. edi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matchking Posted October 9, 2011 Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 I use a 16" .308 for deer stalking.For the ranges that i shoot whilst stalking i think the 16" tube is excellent,The twist rate is a 10 twist.Iwas reloading 130gr barnes ttsx with blc 2 you will be suprised how quick you can get them to pop along.Muzzel flash is a bit of an issue at last light but it is bareable. ATB SEAN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisF Posted October 16, 2011 Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 I would be willing to use a short barrel , say 18 inches , but it would have a tight bore , so I would not lose as much fps , and it would run a can/suppressor always . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJR Posted October 16, 2011 Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 Anyone considering this type of gun should take a serious look at Brock and Norris's 'Ratel'. I haven't fired one but I handled one at Weston Park. There was no mod on it but it felt very balanced, weighty but just the right amount of heavy - not too light to be whipping about when aiming but heavy enought to be stable and very 'pointable'. Think Mike said they would also be available for lefties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rols Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 I recently took the plunge and went ahead and ordered a .308 Brock & Norris Ratel from Mike and collected it last week. I managed to take it out this morning with my mate Smithy (M03) and we set up a couple of gongs at 200 & 500 yards. I decided to go straight for the 500 yarder and dailled in 13 MOA elevation & 1.5 MOA for windage as per the Isnipe data and the Ratel certainly did the business. I got fed up after about 15 shots as they all connected and decided that we need to push the boundaries a little. Unfortunately the weather got the best of us so we decided to pack it in, but I'll be back out as soon as possible and trying it out to 900 yards, which is just about as much distance we can get. Really pleased with the Ratel, which handles like a dream. Heres a couple of photos taken from my phone this morning. Here's one of the first 15 shots from the rifle when I collected it from Mike, last week. Easy to see the two pulled shots!! I'll let you know how it performs at 900 as soon as I get chance to get out Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dannywayoflife Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 That ratel is lovely!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6.5shooter Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 That is a nice rifle! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zelle12 Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 I shot a Blaser R93 with a 19" barell. 155gr A-Max with N133 or H322 reach about 790m/s (2600fps). @Rols: Nice rifle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJR Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 Nice looking rifle and the bolts on the proper side.let us know how you get on with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
janner Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 Anyone considering this type of gun should take a serious look at Brock and Norris's 'Ratel'. I haven't fired one but I handled one at Weston Park. There was no mod on it but it felt very balanced, weighty but just the right amount of heavy - not too light to be whipping about when aiming but heavy enought to be stable and very 'pointable'. Think Mike said they would also be available for lefties. Many thanks for the kind words one and all. The Ratel is on our own action in a format that Ratwhiskers and I worked on for two years to get every thing as we wanted it. Prototypes were tested and used in the feild both here and in Africa. We run a tight bore cut rifled barrel in a proprietry profile supplied by Border Barrels and all have been absolutely spot on. Barrel length is 18 inches we found that the very best results and ballistic efficiency came with 170 - 180 grain bullets....... yes you can run lighter.However the design breif was one rifle.. one load to do every thing. Varmint ..Target... Tactical ... Deer stalking ... Plains game. The 180 gn at 2495 fps is still producing 1250 fps and 560 flbs at 1000 yards. The heavy bullet does not smash roe deer or muntjac and will flatten reds , fallow , kudu , zebra , gemsbok . ( and we have the videos and photos to prove it ) Ratty and I were very fortunate to discuss at length the project with Frank Galli from Rifles only and the guys from G.a.Precision. We had all reached the same conclusion from different directions. The Ratel and the GAP Gladius duplicate the venerable 303 british in a modern , compact delivery system. It worked 100 years ago and is as viable in the field today. No it is not an absolute barn burner with screaming velocity and trajectory akin to a steam rollered hedge hog. What it is ...is accurate , preddictable ... rugged as hell and it hits like a blooby freight train!!!!! Trajectory is only a problem if you dont know it and the wind is an issue if you do not take the time in the feild learning how to read it. We will have a Ratel on the stand at Newark ( provided I can prise one back from their owners.. Heee Heee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dannywayoflife Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 Janner, roughly whats the cost of one of your rattel's in R/H format? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
janner Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 Janner, roughly whats the cost of one of your rattel's in R/H format? Rattel rifle delivered in hard case. cw bore guide , rod . moderator , mounts and bases is £3750. left hand or right hand .There are no options offered on specification on the Ratel .Call on 01952 670198 after 3pm and i can give you a run down on exact specs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gandy Posted February 6, 2012 Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 Looks a lovely bit of kit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris-NZ Posted February 7, 2012 Report Share Posted February 7, 2012 Second that! With reference to Edi's prev comment, here's my T3 which has just had the NZ Hunter "Bush Pig" treatment. Involved chopping the barrel down to 16.5", special Hardy can fitted, bolt spiral fluted and a "halfcock" safety notch fitted which locks the bolt in place. Weight is currently 7lb 11oz with the heavy Optiloc rings and 30mm scope but after I've swapped the scope out for my spare 1" 3-9 Monarch and lighter rings, should come in at 7lbs flat all-up. Remember this is a sub-300yd "spook and shoot" toy so I'm not chasing long range stuff with it. It's temporarily driving 110gr TTSXs at over 3050 while I await the arrival of the 120gr version. Tipped two sika over with it on the weekend. Here's the smaller one- shot very close in dense bush and the TTSX drove straight out the other side leaving an inch diam hole. I'm pointing to the entry hole. The stag I shot with it (high shoulder shot at about 70yds) wouldn't have expired any quicker with a .300 Mag Chris-NZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotch_egg Posted February 7, 2012 Report Share Posted February 7, 2012 Chris, I also note the optilocks are direct mount and not the 2 piece design so regularly used in the UK. Got to say I love it. The extra notch is a nice touch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOOSE Posted February 7, 2012 Report Share Posted February 7, 2012 Second that! With reference to Edi's prev comment, here's my T3 which has just had the NZ Hunter "Bush Pig" treatment. Involved chopping the barrel down to 16.5", special Hardy can fitted, bolt spiral fluted and a "halfcock" safety notch fitted which locks the bolt in place. Weight is currently 7lb 11oz with the heavy Optiloc rings and 30mm scope but after I've swapped the scope out for my spare 1" 3-9 Monarch and lighter rings, should come in at 7lbs flat all-up. Remember this is a sub-300yd "spook and shoot" toy so I'm not chasing long range stuff with it. It's temporarily driving 110gr TTSXs at over 3050 while I await the arrival of the 120gr version. Tipped two sika over with it on the weekend. Here's the smaller one- shot very close in dense bush and the TTSX drove straight out the other side leaving an inch diam hole. I'm pointing to the entry hole. The stag I shot with it (high shoulder shot at about 70yds) wouldn't have expired any quicker with a .300 Mag Chris-NZ Hi Chris Re your Hardy moderator, there is a review of them in this months uk shooting sport magazine which says they are fairly good - combined moderator and muzzle break ? If you dont mind telling how do you find yours, Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris-NZ Posted February 7, 2012 Report Share Posted February 7, 2012 Moose- I'd say it's a very good balance of noise reduction for size/weight. The NZ Hunter guys have tried a smaller diam can from another maker here but the noise reduction is way worse. Please note this is not the std Hardy model you're likely to have access to over there. This has been made to the specific demands of the NZ Hunter crew. It's 245mm (9.5") long, weighs 345gr (12oz) and is 100mm (4") muzzle forward. Here's a pic of the front end, same as the one on my .223 lightweight. Chris-NZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOOSE Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 Moose- I'd say it's a very good balance of noise reduction for size/weight. The NZ Hunter guys have tried a smaller diam can from another maker here but the noise reduction is way worse. Please note this is not the std Hardy model you're likely to have access to over there. This has been made to the specific demands of the NZ Hunter crew. It's 245mm (9.5") long, weighs 345gr (12oz) and is 100mm (4") muzzle forward. Here's a pic of the front end, same as the one on my .223 lightweight. Chris-NZ Hi Chris, I had another look at the magazine article, you are correct the uk spec mod is 300mm x 44.5mm with 100mm of length added at the muzzle - weight given as 12.6oz, Many Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaitsev Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 Second that! With reference to Edi's prev comment, here's my T3 which has just had the NZ Hunter "Bush Pig" treatment. Involved chopping the barrel down to 16.5", special Hardy can fitted, bolt spiral fluted and a "halfcock" safety notch fitted which locks the bolt in place. Weight is currently 7lb 11oz with the heavy Optiloc rings and 30mm scope but after I've swapped the scope out for my spare 1" 3-9 Monarch and lighter rings, should come in at 7lbs flat all-up. Remember this is a sub-300yd "spook and shoot" toy so I'm not chasing long range stuff with it. It's temporarily driving 110gr TTSXs at over 3050 while I await the arrival of the 120gr version. Tipped two sika over with it on the weekend. Here's the smaller one- shot very close in dense bush and the TTSX drove straight out the other side leaving an inch diam hole. I'm pointing to the entry hole. The stag I shot with it (high shoulder shot at about 70yds) wouldn't have expired any quicker with a .300 Mag Chris-NZ Chris, what diameter objective is the scope you have mounted? Thanks G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris-NZ Posted February 9, 2012 Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 Calipers show 50.7mm (or 2" if you're old-fashioned G..) It's a 3-9 Leupold VX-II Euro 30 cheers Chris-NZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TacticalShooter Posted February 9, 2012 Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 Hi Chris, I had another look at the magazine article, you are correct the uk spec mod is 300mm x 44.5mm with 100mm of length added at the muzzle - weight given as 12.6oz, Many Thanks Just thought I would put the record straight. The figures in the magazine are incorrect. The UK one is exactly the same as the NZ one. The overall length is a tad under 9.5 inches and same weight and diameter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redding Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 Well I've been & done it Mr Norris has cut my Sauer .308 down to 18" (I asked him to by the way!) It had a 23" 1-12 twist factory barrel and was producing 2832 fps with 150 grn Speer SPBT/47 grns of Varget & a 9 1/2 Rem primer in Winchester brass, giving me a thumbnail group at 100yards (technical eh) Tomorrow is test day, I have some rounds left from the above batch and it'll be interesting to see what the velocity drop is before I develop anything else. Needless to say the workmanship is awesome, a new thread, an 11 degree target crown and a thread protector to die for. If you read this Mike, I want one of those "Contractor" Ratels ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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